Showalter gives Fox an earful

[Dagger420]

Buck really got that upset? Seems a little over the top to me.

If he stole a bag up 13-3, then maybe.

Well considering we usually suck and we start crushing detroit in a preseason game and pull bush league crap like this, I guess Buck feels it could make us look like this skinny kid:

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[MrOrange82]

The problem with this is that Jake Fox is playing the game the wrong way, and more importantly, he's putting his teammates at risk. You think Leyland will hesitate to drill one of our guys because of this? You can't pull this crap.

IMO, if Fox ignored signs from the dugout and swung away, that's a problem. If there were no applicable signs, and Fox was merely playing the game in a way "old school" guys like Leyland and Buck don't approve of...well, screw that. It's spring training, and Fox has just as much of a right to use his AB's as he thinks they serve him best as a minor league pitcher has to try and throw strikes. The score in a ST context is completely irrelevant, and it's not Fox's job to babysit Detroit's minor leaguers. Furthermore, if the very old man that is Jim Leyland orders one of his pitchers to throw a 90+ mph pitch at an Oriole based on Fox's "offensive" use of a ST at-bat (pun intended), then shame on him.

[ccbird]

Leyland and Showalter, two old school guys, reacted immediately and simultaneously. That tells me Fox committed a pretty big faux pas. IMO, you respect the game at all levels at all times regardless of whether the game is exhibition or real.

[mofome]

Well considering we usually suck and we start crushing detroit in a preseason game and pull bush league crap like this, I guess Buck feels it could make us look like this skinny kid:

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interestingly enough, we almost lost.

spring training - runs dont matter. work on everything.

[mofome]

Perhaps the biggest and most ridiculous overreaction to nothing Ive seen in a couple years.

The pitcher should be trying to improve.

Fox is trying to do all he can.

It is ST.

Teams come back from 8+ down late in games.

Absurd to dig into a guy who has performed as well as fox and seemingly been such a good teammate. The guy will play any position, calmed britton in his first start, and this is being analyzed to this extend.

Absurd.

And if Buck is wrong enough to have any reaction to that, it should be one on one. Don't show your guy up. He's feeding off confidence and thats your guy. Thats awful.

[Malike]

interestingly enough, we almost lost.

spring training - runs dont matter. work on everything.

In what bizarro world does winning a game by 5 runs constitute, "almost lost"?

[MrOrange82]

Leyland and Showalter, two old school guys, reacted immediately and simultaneously. That tells me Fox committed a pretty big faux pas. IMO, you respect the game at all levels at all times regardless of whether the game is exhibition or real.

Respecting the game has to imply, on some level, respecting the various meanings accorded the game's various parts.

If ST games matter as much in that regard as regular season and/or postseason games, then subbing out "starters" after 2-3 innings in early exhibition games is equally bush league.

Obviously an absurd conclusion.

[Enjoy Terror]

It's probably a problem for Leyland out of respect for the game. It's a problem for Buck for the same reason AND Fox ignored the take sign. Why should flagrant disobedience be tolerated?

[mofome]

In what bizarro world does winning a game by 5 runs constitute, "almost lost"?

Well we had to bring in someone to get the last 2 outs of the game. Luke scott had 7 RBI himself in the first 2 innings.

Get every run you can, work on everything you can, and its ST.

Its embarrassing that anyone would even comment on a player swinging at a 3-0 pitch in any game. Our guys are playing to score and improve. Theirs are trying to get guys out that are trying. If you dont want to simulate real game situations, then why play.

This BS about not swinging on 3-0 with any lead is a joke. Get people out, thats your job.

:rolleyestf:

[mofome]

It's probably a problem for Leyland out of respect for the game. It's a problem for Buck for the same reason AND Fox ignored the take sign. Why should flagrant disobedience be tolerated?

Why wouldn't it be kept in house? I would imagine Fox, trying to make the team, didn't miss anything intentionally. It happens. Showing up your player is a joke.

[MrOrange82]

It's probably a problem for Leyland out of respect for the game. It's a problem for Buck for the same reason AND Fox ignored the take sign. Why should flagrant disobedience be tolerated?

I said earlier...if Fox ignored a take sign, that's another issue entirely. I didn't think that had been definitively established?

[ccbird]

Respecting the game has to imply, on some level, respecting the various meanings accorded the game's various parts.

If ST games matter as much in that regard as regular season and/or postseason games, then subbing out "starters" after 2-3 innings in early exhibition games is equally bush league.

Obviously an absurd conclusion.

It has nothing to do with the games mattering. Of course ST games don't matter as much and as such your going to approach the game differently. There is still some things you don't do regardless. As mentioned earlier in the thread, stealing a base up 13-1 would be another one. Like I said, Showalter and Leyland, two old school and well respected guys, reacted immediatedly and harshly. That tells me all I need to know in regards to the situation.

And I would take a good guess Showalter didn't have the take sign on. He probably expected Fox to know what to do and not to do in that situation.

[LookitsPuck]

I don't think Fox did anything wrong.

Buck and Leyland may want to play the game the right way, but this isn't an example.

Leyland needs to stop being a grumpy old man, and Buck needs to stop the holier than thou parade. Buck wants to say this and that about Theo and Derek, and that's ok..but Fox swinging away at 3-0 against a pitcher who is struggling in spring training up by 10? What's the big deal here, again?

Good for Jake Fox. I'd do it if I were him.

[MrOrange82]

It has nothing to do with the games mattering. Of course ST games don't matter as much and as such your going to approach the game differently. There is still some things you don't do regardless. As mentioned earlier in the thread, stealing a base up 13-1 would be another one. Like I said, Showalter and Leyland, two old school and well respected guys, reacted immediatedly and harshly. That tells me all I need to know in regards to the situation.

And I would take a good guess Showalter didn't have the take sign on. He probably expected Fox to know what to do and not to do in that situation.

Why?

And where is it written that the appropriate response to something like that by two veteran managers is blowing up publicly at the player(s) involved?

These games exist as practice sessions. That minor leaguer won't even be on the Tigers' roster come April 1st. His presence literally serves no purpose for the MLers if not to provide potentially swung-at pitches. And as for what the MiLer gets out of it...well, what DOES he get out of it if he comes to expect that 3-0 pitches, no matter how carelessly placed, should just be allowed by hitters to sail by? If he wanted to throw 3-0 meatballs, he could've done so in the bullpen, as opposed to taking up the time of a guy fighting to make the Orioles' ML roster.

[Stotle]

I thought the issue was that Fox intentionally extended the AB by swinging at a CLEAR ball four (as in, bounced or way up or out or something like that), so he didn't have to walk.

Leyland isn't getting angry over someone swinging on 3-0, people. Has to be something like I stated above.

I mean, I did that in a lawyers' softball league game and felt "dirty" doing it.