Are there people on OH you feel could do a better job than AM or other members of the O's brass?

[El Gordo]

I not only think I could do it, I'm certain I could. No amount of you projecting your own personal limitations on me can change that certainty. How about you just accept that and move on?

PA is the CEO of a very sucessful business and he failed miserably when he tried to be the GM.

[mweb]

I think this excerpt from Moneyball is interesting in the context of this thread:

"Lark," says Erik, for instance. Erik is Erik Kubota, the new young scouting director Billy hired to replace Grady. Erik used a giant wad of Copenhagen to disguise the fact that he was a brainy graduate of the University of California Berkeley, whose first job with the Oakland A's had been as a public relations intern. That Erik had never played even high school ball was, in Billy Beane's mind, a point in his favor. At least he hasn't learned the wrong lessons. Billy had played pro ball, and regarded it as an experience he needed to overcome if he wanted to do his job well. "A reformed alcoholic," is how he described himself

[mweb]

Furthermore:

When Alderson had been hired as the A's general manager a decade earlier, he'd been a complete outsider to baseball. This was rare. Most GMs start out as scouts and rise up through the baseball establishment. Alderson was an expensively educated San Francisco lawyer (Dartmouth College, Harvard Law School) with no experience of the game, outside of a bit of time on school playing fields. He was also a former Marine Corps officer, and his self-presentation was much closer to "former Marine Corps officer" than "fancy-pants lawyer." "Sandy didn't know **** about baseball," says Harvey Dorfman, the baseball psychologist Alderson more or less invented. "He was a neophyte. But he was a progressive thinker. And he wanted to understand how the game worked. He also had the capacity to instill fear in others."

[bluedog]

Again, from what you've posted, you clearly state you lack the skill set that is vital for the position. So your plan would be to hire people to do the things that you are supposed to do. I suppose if you go that route, then anyone could do the job. If you can't evaluate talent, and can't trust your own judgement when it comes to players, you have no business being a GM. If you need to hire people to make trade decisions for you, then you'd make a terrible GM. I'm not trying to insult you, you keep pointing to my limitations and I'm merely a Detective, I don't have a fancy CEO job, or whatever. Part of people's strengths are knowing your limitations. You've stated in this very thread that you lack the qualities to evaluate, etc. You wouldn't be a GM, you'd be a puppet, relying on others to tell you what to do for your franchise.

Dude, if your a detective then READ moneyball or look at Theo Epstein's career path and do some detecting. Don't take my word for it, take the word of guys who have been there who've clearly shown that people with little or no baseball playing or scouting experience have successfully stepped into the GM position and held their own.

In addition, actually try reading my posts. I never suggest anywhere that I wouldn't be capable of making personnel decisions. I've stated I have no experience in it right now. But when you step into a new business, if you are capable and surround yourself with experts, you can quickly learn what you need to know to make effective strategic decisions. You don't let other people make key decisions for you, you let them provide expert advise and research and make decisions based on their input. This is how every GM in the business works RIGHT NOW. They don't personally scout every player on every team before making a trade. They don't personally build the statistical models and crunch all the numbers for every player in baseball. They have people that work for them that do those things and then they take the information provided by those people and make an educated decision.

If you are a top level executive you don't do most of the work, you manage people who do most of the work. There simply aren't enough hours in the day for a GM to personally scout every player on every team in the majors, minors, international teams and the college ranks and handle contract negotiations and handle trade negotiations and handle player movements throughout the organization and handle all of the financial and operational issues associated with player personnel. It's impossible - just like it would be impossible for any CEO or GM for any multi-million dollar company to handle that kind of work load. Which is why the key skillset for any top executive for almost any company in the world is personnel and resource management.

They need a GENERAL understanding of everything their subordinates do. They MANAGE other people who do all the heavy lifting. Ergo the term General Manager. They control all aspects of personnel evaluation and development, but there is a huge difference between controlling something and doing something.

[bluedog]

PA is the CEO of a very sucessful business and he failed miserably when he tried to be the GM.

For a GM with absolutely no baseball experience to succeed, he has to surround himself with knowledgeable baseball people and actually listen to their advice. PA's ego makes it impossible for him to do that as the Davey Johnson situation clearly showed. A GM with no experience and no interest in listening to anyone who has experience is a recipe for disaster unless your name is Steinbrenner and you have enough money to buy your way out of every mistake you make while learning the ropes.

[JDubs]

I not only think I could do it, I'm certain I could. No amount of you projecting your own personal limitations on me can change that certainty. How about you just accept that and move on?

For the record, I wasn't referring to you. Just want to make that clear.

[El Gordo]

For a GM with absolutely no baseball experience to succeed, he has to surround himself with knowledgeable baseball people and actually listen to their advice. PA's ego makes it impossible for him to do that as the Davey Johnson situation clearly showed. A GM with no experience and no interest in listening to anyone who has experience is a recipe for disaster unless your name is Steinbrenner and you have enough money to buy your way out of every mistake you make while learning the ropes.

Isn't that the point. PA was a CEO with no baseball experience. Without it how could he know whether what he was hearing from the baseball people around him was correct or not? If you have to trust them, suppose you trust the wrong people because you have no basis from which to evaluate what they are tellinhg you. PA listened to Syd Thrift, also an experience d baseball guy, instead of Gillick or Johnson. If you don't know anything about baseball, how can you judge which baseball guy knows what he's talking about.

[Stotle]

I think this excerpt from Moneyball is interesting in the context of this thread:

Are you aware of Oakland's hit rate on their first couple rounds of picks over the past decade? They actually started improving when they ditched the whole "go for college kids satisfying certain statistical thresholds". But seriously, everyone should look at what their non-scouting scouting department landed in the first half of last decade.

[McNulty]

You people would take the crab outta crab soup.

[bluedog]

Isn't that the point. PA was a CEO with no baseball experience. Without it how could he know whether what he was hearing from the baseball people around him was correct or not? If you have to trust them, suppose you trust the wrong people because you have no basis from which to evaluate what they are tellinhg you. PA listened to Syd Thrift, also an experience d baseball guy, instead of Gillick or Johnson. If you don't know anything about baseball, how can you judge which baseball guy knows what he's talking about.

The same way I judge coder who work for me when I don't code. Or artists who work for me when I don't illustrate. Or animators who work for me when I don't know Flash or HTML5. Or my CFO when I have no training in finance. Or the lawyers who I hire when I have no background in law. Or the janitor I hire when I have no background in waste management.

Results and accountability.

To determine who you hire and take advice from, you look at what they've done before and the quality of their work.

Once you've hired them, you hold them accountable. If they repeatedly fail you fire them. If they succeed, you reward them.

Let's take the Davey Johnson situation as an example. He was hired because of his results - his teams had finished either 1st or 2nd in 9 of 10 years prior to coming to Baltimore. And once he got here, he was successful - he led us to two straight playoff appearances and within a couple of games of a world series. He's a proven guy that gets results and by any metric he was doing a great job in Baltimore. So what does Angelos do? He gets into a pissing war with Johnson over a silly Roberto Alomar fine and pushes Johnson out of the organization on the very day Johnson is awarded Manager of the Year for leading the O's to a 98 - 64 record. The whole incident started because Johnson fined Roberto Alomar for skipping some team functions. Johnson leaving had nothing to do with performance, it had to do with Angelos' ego.

In that case, Angelos took all of the evidence of how the guy was performing in his job and completely ignored it and instead made a decision based on his personal feelings about Johnson. That's why Angelos is a failure as a baseball owner - his ego.

[El Gordo]

The same way I judge coder who work for me when I don't code. Or artists who work for me when I don't illustrate. Or animators who work for me when I don't know Flash or HTML5. Or my CFO when I have no training in finance. Or the lawyers who I hire when I have no background in law. Or the janitor I hire when I have no background in waste management.

Results and accountability.

To determine who you hire and take advice from, you look at what they've done before and the quality of their work.

Once you've hired them, you hold them accountable. If they repeatedly fail you fire them. If they succeed, you reward them.

Let's take the Davey Johnson situation as an example. He was hired because of his results - his teams had finished either 1st or 2nd in 9 of 10 years prior to coming to Baltimore. And once he got here, he was successful - he led us to two straight playoff appearances and within a couple of games of a world series. He's a proven guy that gets results and by any metric he was doing a great job in Baltimore. So what does Angelos do? He gets into a pissing war with Johnson over a silly Roberto Alomar fine and pushes Johnson out of the organization on the very day Johnson is awarded Manager of the Year for leading the O's to a 98 - 64 record. The whole incident started because Johnson fined Roberto Alomar for skipping some team functions. Johnson leaving had nothing to do with performance, it had to do with Angelos' ego.

In that case, Angelos took all of the evidence of how the guy was performing in his job and completely ignored it and instead made a decision based on his personal feelings about Johnson. That's why Angelos is a failure as a baseball owner - his ego.

But PA is not a failure as a CEO. He just had poor baseball judgement because he didn't undertsand the game. He didn't realize the value of Johnson as a manager over other options. If you are the GM but you know nothing about baseball how would you pick one manager over another for your team? Do you really think W/L record is the only metric? How would you choose between Bobby Valentine and Buck Showalter e.g. You can consult knowledgeable baseball people who would endorse both.

[NattieO'sHon]

Monday Morning QBs

[maybenxtyr]

You people would take the crab outta crab soup.

FO' REAL. Let us continue to stroke our egos.

[mweb]

Are you aware of Oakland's hit rate on their first couple rounds of picks over the past decade? They actually started improving when they ditched the whole "go for college kids satisfying certain statistical thresholds". But seriously, everyone should look at what their non-scouting scouting department landed in the first half of last decade.

I simply posted something that I thought was pertinent to the thread. No opinion added.

But I think the other thing I posted is even more relevant to the thread.

[JTrea81]

So what does Angelos do? He gets into a pissing war with Johnson over a silly Roberto Alomar fine and pushes Johnson out of the organization on the very day Johnson is awarded Manager of the Year for leading the O's to a 98 - 64 record. The whole incident started because Johnson fined Roberto Alomar for skipping some team functions. Johnson leaving had nothing to do with performance, it had to do with Angelos' ego.

In that case, Angelos took all of the evidence of how the guy was performing in his job and completely ignored it and instead made a decision based on his personal feelings about Johnson. That's why Angelos is a failure as a baseball owner - his ego.

DJ demanded an extension on that day or else he was going to pull a Riggleman with one year left on his deal. That's why Angelos accepted his resignation, because he wasn't willing to play out the last year of his deal. Davey overplayed his hand and Angelos called him on it.