Intentional Talk (Kevin Millar) discusses Jones for Jurrjens and Prado...

[Ooooooohhhh!!!!]

Trading Jones is getting rid of a player that doesn't want to play here. He's gotten big enough for his britches that he thinks he wants to go play for a contender now instead of doing his time and earning his way to one.

Has he actually said he doesn't want to play here? I read that on here a lot, but I've never seen anything indicating that was true. It's certainly possible that I missed it.

[lovetoaster]

Just quit it with your hyperbole dude.

Good luck with that, he works in hyperbole the way other artists might work in oils or clay.

[allstar1579]

Has he actually said he doesn't want to play here? I read that on here a lot, but I've never seen anything indicating that was true. It's certainly possible that I missed it.

No, but he will never say that because it will kill his trade value and reduce his chances of getting out of here. It's been whispered for a while that he wants to go play for a winner, but when you are a young team trying to develop and have a solid defensive CF with some real offensive pop, you don't go offering him up in trades semi-publicly (it's the worst kept secret in baseball that we are shopping him). So add that, the lack of extension talks, and the whispers and it all paints a pretty clear picture. That's fine and all, not every player wants to stay and play somewhere, and he's made no secret how much he loves the west coast. One of the reasons why SF would be a good trade partner if they had more to offer.

[Lucky Jim]

Trading Jones is getting rid of a player that doesn't want to play here. He's gotten big enough for his britches that he thinks he wants to go play for a contender now instead of doing his time and earning his way to one.

I can't say that JJ/Prado is my favorite scenario to get back for him, but after all this he's gotta go either way. He's not some MVP candidate, and if he's not hitting 30HR here, he's not going to hit it somewhere else. People need to stop acting like we are trading Cal Ripken here and get over it. Whiners...SMH.

No, but he will never say that because it will kill his trade value and reduce his chances of getting out of here. It's been whispered for a while that he wants to go play for a winner, but when you are a young team trying to develop and have a solid defensive CF with some real offensive pop, you don't go offering him up in trades semi-publicly (it's the worst kept secret in baseball that we are shopping him). So add that, the lack of extension talks, and the whispers and it all paints a pretty clear picture. That's fine and all, not every player wants to stay and play somewhere, and he's made no secret how much he loves the west coast. One of the reasons why SF would be a good trade partner if they had more to offer.

Wait, so folks who don't his 30 HRs before 27 are foreclosed from hitting 30 HRs later? That's #$*%ing ridiculous. And historically bankrupt.

Shake your head all you like, but this is speculative at best and ridiculous at worst. So, he hasn't said it and never will, but "whispers" indicate that he's itching to play for a winner. His skepticism that a team with 14 straight losing seasons will get there soon makes him somehow...a problem child?

I swear, the moralistic scolding on this board is inane at times.

[allstar1579]

Wait, so folks who don't his 30 HRs before 27 are likely to never hit 30 HRs? That's #$*%ing ridiculous. And historically bankrupt.

Shake your head all you like, but this is speculative at best and ridiculous at worst. So, he hasn't said it and never will, but "whispers" indicate that he's itching to play for a winner. His skepticism that a team with 14 straight losing seasons will get there soon makes him somehow...a problem child?

I swear, the moralistic scolding on this board is inane at times.

You do it as much as the rest of us, so really, soapbox much?

No, he isn't a 30 HR guy, I'm surprised he's hit this many HR. Could I possibly be wrong later? Sure, but this is a park he's going to hit more in than most, and I'm throwing out there that I don't think he'll develop any more power. You are so quick to bash people for their views and opinions on players, yet you never put yourself out there with one.

I never said he was a problem child, so you can keep your words out of my mouth thanks. I said it was perfectly fine if he didn't want to play here. But I'm also saying he will not extend here, and if he's not going to extend and won't be part of any possible winning here, why are we considering him part of the core? Wishful thinking?

I swear, the looking down our nose at people for their opinions on this board is insane at times.

[Lucky Jim]

You do it as much as the rest of us, so really, soapbox much?

No, he isn't a 30 HR guy, I'm surprised he's hit this many HR. Could I possibly be wrong later? Sure, but this is a park he's going to hit more in than most, and I'm throwing out there that I don't think he'll develop any more power. You are so quick to bash people for their views and opinions on players, yet you never put yourself out there with one.

I never said he was a problem child, so you can keep your words out of my mouth thanks. I said it was perfectly fine if he didn't want to play here. But I'm also saying he will not extend here, and if he's not going to extend and won't be part of any possible winning here, why are we considering him part of the core? Wishful thinking?

I swear, the looking down our nose at people for their opinions on this board is insane at times.

Of players? When have I ever taken a moralistic stance toward a player? Name a single time. You said he'd gotten "too big for his britches." What does that mean if not "problem child"? What is that, if not "moralistic"?

I'll put myself out there: I guarantee Adam Jones hits 30 HRs in a year during his career. And I'm happy to back up that guarantee. So...on the line. Here are his "most similar by age" comps:

Dave Winfield (975) *

Reggie Smith (963)

Chili Davis (957)

Gary Matthews (955)

Sixto Lezcano (953)

Andre Dawson (951) *

Al Oliver (951)

Lee Mazzilli (949)

Dwight Evans (948)

Sammy Sosa (947)

There's power remaining in Jones's bat. And his hit tool is just good enough that he's likely to parlay that power into a couple of 30-HR seasons. He's probably a .780-.850 OPS (based on BABIP variability) for the prime years of his career, meaning that the variable in his value will always be defense. If the metrics deceive - and maybe they do - that's a very valuable CF.

That said, I don't disagree with you: Jones is highly unlikely to re-sign here (though it's not foreclosed completely), he loves the West Coast, he's got holes in his game, but not holes that ruin his value, and he's clearly itching to play for a winner. But all that tells us is (i) he wants to win; (ii) he's from San Diego; (iii) he's not Griffey. I'm all for moving him. I'm not for making him seem like a lesser player simply because it's time to do so.

That said, you're right. I'm feeling feisty this morning, and should reign in the rhetoric. I bristle at speculation being passed off as certainty, and I hate when conversations about value start becoming conversations about character. But you're entitled to your opinions. Certainly don't want to imply otherwise, or scold you for having them. Apologies.

[SilentJames]

Trading Jones is getting rid of a player that doesn't want to play here. He's gotten big enough for his britches that he thinks he wants to go play for a contender now instead of doing his time and earning his way to one.

I can't say that JJ/Prado is my favorite scenario to get back for him, but after all this he's gotta go either way. He's not some MVP candidate, and if he's not hitting 30HR here, he's not going to hit it somewhere else. People need to stop acting like we are trading Cal Ripken here and get over it. Whiners...SMH.

I can speak from personal experience that Jones seems to be very happy here and I don't know why some think he has "gotten too big for his breeches," I mean has he ever sulked? Complained to the media? Whined about - anything?

[atomic]

Here are all the power hitting CFers in baseball that can hit for average as well:

Matt Kemp, Jacoby Ellsbury, Curtis Granderson, Andrew McCutchen, and Adam Jones

That's 5

There were 34 starting pitchers last year that pitched 180 innings or more and had a sub 3.5 ERA.

And Jurrjens wasn't one of them.

Well the problem with your logic is that teams only need one centerfielder but they need more than one starting pitcher.

[allstar1579]

Of players? When have I ever taken a moralistic stance toward a player? Name a single time. You said he'd gotten "too big for his britches." What does that mean if not "problem child"? What is that, if not "moralistic"?

I'll put myself out there: I guarantee Adam Jones hits 30 HRs in a year during his career. And I'm happy to back up that guarantee. So...on the line. Here are his "most similar by age" comps:

Dave Winfield (975) *

Reggie Smith (963)

Chili Davis (957)

Gary Matthews (955)

Sixto Lezcano (953)

Andre Dawson (951) *

Al Oliver (951)

Lee Mazzilli (949)

Dwight Evans (948)

Sammy Sosa (947)

There's power remaining in Jones's bat. And his hit tool is just good enough that he's likely to parlay that power into a couple of 30-HR seasons. He's probably a .780-.850 OPs for his career, meaning that the variable in his value will always be defense. If the metrics deceive - and maybe they do - that's a very valuable CF.

That said, I don't disagree with you: Jones is highly unlikely to re-sign here (though it's not foreclosed completely), he loves the West Coast, he's got holes in his game, but not holes that ruin his value, and he's clearly itching to play for a winner. But all that tells us is (i) he wants to win; (ii) he's from San Diego; (iii) he's not Griffey. I'm all for moving him. I'm not for making him seem like a lesser player simply because it's time to do so.

That said, you're right. I'm feeling feisty this morning, and should reign in the rhetoric. I bristle at speculation being passed off as certainty, and I hate when conversations about value start becoming conversations about character. But you're entitled to your opinions.

It was a figure of speech, not meant as literally he's got an ego problem. If he wants to move from a non-contender to a contender I don't fault him for that, but I'm surprised that he would be so tired of losing already since he's only been here 3 years.

I give you a lot of credit for making a statement like that. It's hard to do because people around here will forget all the times you were right, but will never let you hear the end of times you are wrong.

I don't agree, and it's just a good example of our two schools of thought. I hate comps, what one player has done will have no direct effect on another player. He could just as easily turn out to be Mark Whiten as he could turn out to be one of those guys. But like I said, I respect you putting your opinion out there, and in the end you could very easily end up being right and me wrong, it's not like it's an off-the-wall prediction.

I could tell you were a little feisty, rough week at work?

[Pedro Cerrano]

Jurrjens isn't the answer and I won't be too happy if this is the deal that goes down (although based on what I've read it won't). I don't get all the hatred towards Adam Jones, he has been a very solid player for us and was, in my opinion, our best offensive player last year.

I also think that people do get way too caught up in the "flavor of the month" prospect(s) who have not done a damn thing. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to trading him but it would have to be a very nice package and Jurrjens/Prado ain't it.

[Lucky Jim]

It was a figure of speech, not meant as literally he's got an ego problem. If he wants to move from a non-contender to a contender I don't fault him for that, but I'm surprised that he would be so tired of losing already since he's only been here 3 years.

I give you a lot of credit for making a statement like that. It's hard to do because people around here will forget all the times you were right, but will never let you hear the end of times you are wrong.

I don't agree, and it's just a good example of our two schools of thought. I hate comps, what one player has done will have no direct effect on another player. He could just as easily turn out to be Mark Whiten as he could turn out to be one of those guys. But like I said, I respect you putting your opinion out there, and in the end you could very easily end up being right and me wrong, it's not like it's an off-the-wall prediction.

I could tell you were a little feisty, rough week at work?

Ha. The opposite. In pretty good spirits and so champing at the bit for some feistiness. Can you tell that I grew up in a family that showed affection by arguing about politics at the dinner table?

[allstar1579]

I can speak from personal experience that Jones seems to be very happy here and I don't know why some think he has "gotten too big for his breeches," I mean has he ever sulked? Complained to the media? Whined about - anything?

Figure of speech. More to the issue of him having little to no interest extending here when he's not exactly a league MVP. I know it's completely his right, and I don't really blame him, but I also see him talk about his love of the West Coast all the time, like he's just biding his time to get back there.

A good professional isn't going to sulk or complain in the media, or whine so that people in general can read it, they are taught not to do those things. But a player that doesn't want to be somewhere will also talk warmly about other places ALL the time, and will spend as little optional time in his team's city as possible. I'm not calling him TO or anything, but I'm fairly positive he has no interest in extending here, and it's just my opinion that if he doesn't want to be here long term, then I'd be happy to send him somewhere sooner than later before his value drops (closer he gets to FA, injury or down year.)

EDIT: I'd also be just as happy signing him to an extension and wouldn't have an issue. And I'm a guy that figures character into assessments.

[allstar1579]

Ha. The opposite. In pretty good spirits and so champing at the bit for some feistiness. Can you tell that I grew up in a family that showed affection by arguing about politics at the dinner table?

Ha, gotcha. Mine was the opposite, didn't have anyone intelligent enough to have a discussion about much of anything, hence why I retreat to the interwebs. I'm the black sheep.

[Bradysburns]

It's really sad how fans are running him out of town IMO. They won't know what they've lost until he's gone...and we have a platoon of Chavez and Miller in CF...

Hopefully I won't care by then...

It's a damn shame that people want to trade him instead of build around him.

I agree with the spirit of this post. People say Atlanta needs a power-hitting center fielder. Well, WE do. So does everybody. It's just, not everyone can have one - and what is such a player worth to any given team at this moment?

Adam is the exact kind of homegrown player we want to build around. BUT if you get Jurrjens, Prado and one or two of Minor, Beachy, etc., then it makes sense for us. I'd do Jurrjens, Prado and Beachy for Jones without hesitation.

You have to start with pitching. We have no pitching staff. So to our team, right now, starting pitching is a little more of a priority.

[lovetoaster]

I can speak from personal experience that Jones seems to be very happy here and I don't know why some think he has "gotten too big for his breeches," I mean has he ever sulked? Complained to the media? Whined about - anything?

I am in the "trade Jones if we get a solid return" camp, but I think people are making some incorrect assumptions about what he wants and doesn't want. Off the field, and even on the field sometimes, he is a pretty even keel guy. He does have a swagger, but he is not much of an upbeat rah-rah guy for the most part, and I think many people may mistake his demeanor for not being happy. I think thats just the way he is and that he would be the same here, in Atlanta or in San Diego. I don't think he doesn't want to be here and is actively trying to get out.

The fact is, we're missing the crucial piece of information: would Jones sign, and for how much? We just don't know - period.

Ahh, yes, this is the magic question. None of us have any clue what is going on with this, but if I had to guess, Duquette feels like the outlook of signing him to an extension that works for both Jones and the Orioles is not very positive. Hence, the discussions that we are having now.