Tillman Tonight

[Lucky Jim]

Thats no different than TIllman with any of his pitches really. I mean can you really say Tillman is able to command even his fastball??

You don't start with two MLB pitches. Unless they're much better than Hernandez's. That's the fundamental difference. Honestly, I thought that was pretty much common knowledge.

Tillman struggled with everything, in terms of repeating mechanics and command. That doesn't mean that the overall package isn't better for being a starter.

[ccbird]

I haven't heard any preaching. Just a bunch of O's fans that are very surprised and happy that Tillman is pitching well again at the AAA level, and that he may eventually get another chance (is some capacity) with the Orioles.

It's a figure of speech. Point was only that many people were ready to move Hernandez almost immediately while people are much slower to come around on moving Tillman.

[ccbird]

You don't start with two MLB pitches. Unless they're much better than Hernandez's. That's the fundamental difference. Honestly, I thought that was pretty much common knowledge.

Tillman struggled with everything, in terms of repeating mechanics and command. That doesn't mean that the overall package isn't better for being a starter.

Yet, Hernandez started all through the minors and 1 yr and a half in the majors before being transitioned. If the O's didn't think he had some chance as a SP he would not have started for as long as he did. So don't give me the common knowledge thing. As I said, I'll buy that Tillman profiled better as a SP but at this point, where he is now, I don't think his profile is that much better as a SP than Hernandez's was when he was transitioned to the pen.

[Lucky Jim]

Yet, Hernandez started all through the minors and 1 yr and a half in the majors before being transitioned. If the O's didn't think he had some chance as a SP he would not have started for as long as he did. So don't give me the common knowledge thing. As I said, I'll buy that Tillman profiled better as a SP but at this point, where he is now, I don't think his profile is that much better as a SP than Hernandez's was when he was transitioned to the pen.

I think you're reading an awful lot into MiLB decisions. It's pretty common knowledge that, absent one plus-plus pitch (and probably one plus pitch), two-pitch guys don't start in MLB. Given that DH only flashed the SL for the most part, it was pretty much a no-brainer to move him to the BP.

I've seen Tillman flash an above average FB, a plus curve, a plus change and a workable cutter. That's just a completely different circumstance, and it's probably why the O's haven't moved him to the pen yet.

I get that you don't think it. I'm truly okay with that - I feel no need to convince you.

[Flosman]

I think most of us understand that Tillman has about 60 days to show something that makes it reasonable to think he is a starter in the majors. With no option for next season he will make it reasonable to expect he can be in the rotation by the end of September or he will be moved to the Pen, IMO. Really the only other option is to trade him but without a option available and with his track record I can't imagine getting a lot for him.

[Lucky Jim]

This thread from 2009 pretty much covers my take on DH and his arsenal and where he ends up. Pretty good stuff from Stotle in it, I think.

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/85278-David-Hernandez-today

After his first good SL of the game:

I thought that slider for strike three was his first good one this afternoon. If he can throw that, with his FB and even a show-me change, I like his BOR starter possibilities.

The problem was even as the SL came around, he didn't have anything more than a show-me change. He may get a shot as a starter some day, but there's no doubt that not needing to rely on a third-pitch and the ability to go max-effort really helped his stuff. The K-rate just jumped, as did the swings and misses. Something he didn't get much of as a starter.

We should also note that DH was 24 (Tillman's age now) when he threw his first MLB pitch in 2009.

[OFFNY]

It's a figure of speech. Point was only that many people were ready to move Hernandez almost immediately while people are much slower to come around on moving Tillman.

Well, maybe they're right. And when you say "people that are preaching patience," it usually isn't to be taken as a figure of speech.

Besides, who really cares how they felt about Hernandez then compared to how they feel about Tillman now ??? Hernandez doesn't pitch for us anymore, and Tillman, who just threw his second consecutive good game for the Tides, isn't blocking anyone at the major league level right now ..... and if he continues to pitch well for the AAA-Tides, there's no reason why we wouldn't bring him up and pitch for the Orioles, either as a starter or out of the bullpen, depending on what our needs are at that time.

[ccbird]

Here is the thing. If I didn't think Tillman had a good chance transition and be a solid RP I wouldn't even be taking the time out to discuss him. I would be willing to just say hey let him continue to start and hope and pray something clicks. I think we really need to find out if cutting it loose and throwing 2 pitches can make him a dominant RP. And yes I think there would have to be some transition. I saw you say earlier in the thread you just do it, you basically just put him out in the pen one day and that you didn't think there really needed to be a transition. I disagree because it's not like he has even 1 plus pitch in his arsenal right now. IMO, he's still trying to work on too many things as a SP 7 years into his career. He's still trying to find consistent FB command and the feel for all of his offspeed stuff, and better mechanics, etc . He's sitting there with some decent tools but not able to master any of them. Let him foucs on 1 or 2 pitches and see if he can develop a plus pitch or two that he can consistently go to to get ML hitters out.

[Lucky Jim]

Here is the thing. If I didn't think Tillman had a good chance transition and be a solid RP I wouldn't even be taking the time out to discuss him. I would be willing to just say hey let him continue to start and hope and pray something clicks. I think we really need to find out if cutting it loose and throwing 2 pitches can make him a dominant RP. And yes I think there would have to be some transition. I saw you say earlier in the thread you just do it, you basically just put him out in the pen one day and that you didn't think there really needed to be a transition. I disagree because it's not like he has even 1 plus pitch in his arsenal right now. IMO, he's still trying to work on too many things as a SP 7 years into his career. He's still trying to find consistent FB command and the feel for all of his offspeed stuff, and better mechanics, etc . He's sitting there with some decent tools but not able to master any of them. Let him foucs on 1 or 2 pitches and see if he can develop a plus pitch or two that he can consistently go to to get ML hitters out.

I think everyone understands where you're coming from on this. It's reasonable. I still disagree.

BTW, I take it from your scouting report that you've watched him this year, in MiLB games?

[Lucky Jim]

I think everyone understands where you're coming from on this. It's reasonable. I still disagree.

BTW, I take it from your scouting report that you've watched him this year, in MiLB games?

Actually, I take that back. If you don't think he has a single plus pitch right now (based on whatever), then I'm not sure it makes any sense to put him in the bullpen.

[Frobby]

We have seen this from him at AAA but it has not translated to the majors so I am not buying it.

We have seen lines similar to this from him in the majors numerous times. What we haven't seen, since his rookie year, is Tillman putting together two good starts in a row at the major league level, and he has become more inconsistent at the minor league level as well. He's had five good starts out of 11 this year. I need to see a lot more than the occasional brilliant game before giving Tillman another shot at the majors.

[DrOrioles90210]

Actually, I take that back. If you don't think he has a single plus pitch right now (based on whatever), then I'm not sure it makes any sense to put him in the bullpen.

Looking at what he was able to do last night (if he did that with no plus pitches), it seems like his arsenal is deep enough and he has enough pitchability that maybe he's better suited as a starter.

[weams]

Actually, I take that back. If you don't think he has a single plus pitch right now (based on whatever), then I'm not sure it makes any sense to put him in the bullpen.

I am watching the Norfolk Tides @ Pawtucket Red Sox on MiLB.TV. Check it out. @minorleagues #milbtv http://www.milb.com/milb/multimedia/milbtv.jsp

[Araqnid]

I think the fact that he is able to sprinkle starts like this in with his others is reason enough to continue trying him as a starter. You can't call any of his pitches plus yet, because he can't maintain the results start-to-start, but these glimpses show that he still does have a potentially decent future as a starter. I understand that there's considerable evidence that he'd be a great reliever, but good starters are almost always more valuable than great relievers, and if you're closing the door on him starting, you have to be 100% sure he has NO future starting. I'm not convinced that has been proven yet.

[weams]

I think the fact that he is able to sprinkle starts like this in with his others is reason enough to continue trying him as a starter. You can't call any of his pitches plus yet, because he can't maintain the results start-to-start, but these glimpses show that he still does have a potentially decent future as a starter. I understand that there's considerable evidence that he'd be a great reliever, but good starters are almost always more valuable than great relievers, and if you're closing the door on him starting, you have to be 100% sure he has NO future starting. I'm not convinced that has been proven yet.

His mechanics seem altered and he appears to be throwing downhill an easy 93mph.