We have to hit Jeter tomorrow if we get a good lead.

[DrungoHazewood]

You use a strawman argument. I never said that Drysdale and Gibson "hit multiple batters a game just to keep them in line" nor did I use their example to advocate for the hysterical "injuring people on purpose" response it elicited. Your comparison of Gibson to a wild pitcher like Guthrie has nothing to do with the original point I made which both of you missed, namely that Gibson and Drysdale did use message pitches in a specifically designed psychological fashion in order to respond to similar acts on the opposing team. But hey why not rebut a point that was never made with statistics that don't say anything except that Bob Gibson and Don Drysdale could control their pitches better than Jeremy Guthrie. Hyperbole is part of straw man arguments too.

Sorry to inject more strawman statistics that don't mean anything, but Drysdale walked 2.2 per nine, Guthrie 2.7, Gibson 3.1. I don't see any evidence that there's a huge control gap there.

[Gurgi]

When I was a kid a guy backed into my parents' station wagon at a gas station. The only way he learned his lesson that day was when Dad backed up, got a good running start, and smashed into his car at 50 mph. It's the unwritten rules of the road.

Good God Drungo? Your really stretching things here.

All this grief over hoping we hit a Yankee in response to their hitting one of our guys?

Last I heard baseball was played by guys wearing jockstraps and not girdles.

[The Wedge]

Sorry to inject more strawman statistics that don't mean anything, but Drysdale walked 2.2 per nine, Guthrie 2.7, Gibson 3.1. I don't see any evidence that there's a huge control gap there.

Guthrie probably hit more guys with his inside pitching because guys wear body armor the hitters couldn't even conceive of back then, and they therefore cover more of the plate with less fear.

[The Wedge]

Good God Drungo? Your really stretching things here.

That wooshing sound was the point going over your head. He was doing that on purpose as this is what's been going on for almost 12 hours now.

[The Wedge]

By the way, I'm calling it: Throwing out "that's a strawman" is the new arguing tactic to replace "now you're just arguing semantics." It's rarely used right.

[OFFNY]

By the way, I'm calling it: Throwing out "that's a strawman" is the new arguing tactic to replace "now you're just arguing semantics." It's rarely used right.

Not far behind ...... fire-bombong another poster, and when they retaliate, you say, "You seem to be picking a fight with me."

[JourneyFan]

Have to hit Jeter and make it hurt.

[DrungoHazewood]

Good God Drungo? Your really stretching things here.

All this grief over hoping we hit a Yankee in response to their hitting one of our guys?

Last I heard baseball was played by guys wearing jockstraps and not girdles.

Last I heard it was 2012, not 1912. Not only that, but if the O's get in a beanball war and lose Jones or Reynolds or Wieters the chances of making a postseason run fall off the table. The O's are already a team held together with chewing gum and old soda cans, the last thing they need is to have their emotions play to the Yanks strengths. They lose ARod and insert Eric Chavez and his 6 gold gloves and four years of MVP votes. We lose somebody and we're fishing around the roster of the Long Island Ducks for a replacement.

[tntoriole]

Sorry to inject more strawman statistics that don't mean anything, but Drysdale walked 2.2 per nine, Guthrie 2.7, Gibson 3.1. I don't see any evidence that there's a huge control gap there.

Did I say in my post that Drysdale and Gibson "hit multiple batters a game to keep them in line"? Are you saying that Drysdale and Gibson never used message pitches? The use of an intention pitch would seem to be a statistically rare occurrence so it is hard to see how career or season walk numbers relate directly to it. When someone puts a premise out that was not offered..i.e. drysdale hitting multiple batters a game and then continues to "prove" the unoffered premise, that is a strawman argument.

[The Wedge]

Did I say in my post that Drysdale and Gibson "hit multiple batters a game to keep them in line"? Are you saying that Drysdale and Gibson never used message pitches? The use of an intention pitch would seem to be a statistically rare occurrence so it is hard to see how career or season walk numbers relate directly to it. When someone puts a premise out that was not offered..i.e. drysdale hitting multiple batters a game and then continues to "prove" the unoffered premise, that is a strawman argument.

He wasn't responding to you. He was pointing out the hyperbole in even bringing up "the old days," with those specific guys in to the argument. Your refusal to drop it is more a strawman than what he's doing.

[DrungoHazewood]

Did I say in my post that Drysdale and Gibson "hit multiple batters a game to keep them in line"? Are you saying that Drysdale and Gibson never used message pitches? The use of an intention pitch would seem to be a statistically rare occurrence so it is hard to see how career or season walk numbers relate directly to it. When someone puts a premise out that was not offered..i.e. drysdale hitting multiple batters a game and then continues to "prove" the unoffered premise, that is a strawman argument.

So what was your argument? Because I certainly took it as guy like Drysdale and Gibson were headhunters, or at least aggressively pitched inside and hit a lot of batters, and they did it because that was the way the game was played. And my response was, ok, if that was true then why do nondescript pitchers with no reputation for anything hit more batters than either of those guys?

I'm not denying that Gibson nor Drysdale were intimidating, but they certainly weren't plunking a lot of guys on purpose. And most of this thread has been all about the supposed need for the O's to hit Yankee batters on purpose. Not be intimidating. Not pitch inside. But to hit someone like Jeter or Cano on purpose.

[utvolzac]

We've got a perfect suspension candidate in Kevin Gregg. Jeter needs to enjoy watching the rest of the pennant run in the stands just like Nick.

[The Wedge]

We've got a perfect suspension candidate in Kevin Gregg. Jeter needs to enjoy watching the rest of the pennant run in the stands just like Nick.

I'll say this again: we need to worry more about the wild card suspensions that would come from the benches clearing (which they would with the tensions as they are). Not just the pitcher. Yes, obviously we have suspension fodder like Gregg. But what happens if we lose AJ? Wieters? Remember when Cal's streak almost ended because he got caught at the bottom of a pile and got his knee rolled?

Sometimes you gotta pick your battles and let the play on the field do your talking. It's not "rolling over" or the like, it's rising above the crap and prevailing another way.

[crawjo]

Also there is the fact that Sabathia did not do anything wrong. Picking a fight now, while we are tied atop the standings, is silly.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'll say this again: we need to worry more about the wild card suspensions that would come from the benches clearing (which they would with the tensions as they are). Not just the pitcher. Yes, obviously we have suspension fodder like Gregg. But what happens if we lose AJ? Wieters? Remember when Cal's streak almost ended because he got caught at the bottom of a pile and got his knee rolled?

Sometimes you gotta pick your battles and let the play on the field do your talking. It's not "rolling over" or the like, it's rising above the crap and prevailing another way.

Just imagine the next step. Lose Jones and the outfield is Avery, McLouth, and Lew Ford, with Hoes and Davis in backup roles. Lose Wieters and Teagarden and his .130 average plays every day. Lose Hardy and Machado or Andino has to slide over and who knows what gets to cover 2B/3B. The O's now have several positions where they're close to a single point of failure.