Gold Glove announcement tonight...scouts perspective ( Update - All 3 Orioles win)

[Orange_Crush]

I can't believe how serious people take this stuff, it's just an award. Really I could care less if they win any.

[HoustonOrioleFan]

Four down, twelve to go.....

You just reminded me how amazing Brooksie's 16 straight were....Typing it out adds to its awesomeness -

1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975

Somehow reading "1960 to 1975" psychologically lessens it for me, but to see each year...wow, just wow.

[DrungoHazewood]

What is this the New Drungo? You've suddenly decided to dismiss the objective metrics which say he was anywhere from from 5 to 16 runs below average last year? (not to mention his track record).

Park factor I guess?

I didn't say I believed he was better than average. I said he was arguably better than average. You could construct an argument that some combination of park factors and team DE and his arm make him better than average overall, not that I think it's a very compelling argument.

I have a very low opinion of the Gold Gloves, so I'm not displeased if they manage to give the award to guys who aren't obviously terrible. Jones > Trout comes pretty close to an obviously terrible decision.

Not sure if it was mentioned or not, but I'm sure Trout was also docked somewhat for being a rookie. Some of the people who vote on this are the type that feel you need to earn some stripes first.

I believe that too, so I don't count batting titles for anyone who's under 25, either.

[Il BuonO]

Also, I have never questioned AJ's work ethic. The blowing bubbles thing is being blown out of proportion, pardon the pun. My statement came from his actual technique in the OF. I don't see that changing.

I had to get going to work....

I agree with the bolded part, however Jone's issues/resistance to coaching is fairly well documented with public statements by Paul Blair and Shelby. I'd argue there is also proof in the objective metrics, especially one's (like FB) that show him playing too shallow and consistently letting too many balls get over his head. In many ways the traits that make Jones a good player, attitude, confidence, trying to push the limits of his skillset are also the same traits that hold him back from making additional improvements.

As far as Buck being "happy" with how some players are playing defense, I think you're off the mark. I don't think there's necessarily any issues with effort on the part of Jones or Markakis. The issues have more to to do with talent/skills and making tough decisions to improve the team (probably in the near future) by hurting some inflated egoes. In the end, management has to be objective in making decision to improve the team no matter how tough that may be or who they offend. Don't think these GG's and associated statements by Buck wrt Nick or Jones do much to advance that. In the end I'd say Buck is more of a political animal (with some of the players) than people would like to think.

This states my feeling much more completely. Adam Jones is not Paul Blair and I feel sometimes especially earlier in his career when he was playing even more shallow than he currently does now, that he was tring to emulate Blair's defensive career arc, shall we say? It's admirable, but he had to be convinced that he would have to play deeper. Why? Because he doesn't have the skill set of Paul Blair.

I played ball through college and after and have done some scouting, but I have really never learned more statistically about the game until I joined the OH. I want to thank you guys for that. It heightens my enjoyment for the game, but I'm puzzled by how sometimes it seems as though the numbers are used to support arguments then tossed out when not so convenient.

I am happy all of our guys won the GG. I hope their defense continues to improve, but I'm less sure that will happen with Jones.

[Singleton]

I don't get all the fuss. For some reason certain players become lightening rods and sadly, Adam Jones is one of those players. I'd also say the fans have been harder on Chris Tillman than other members of the calvery who haven't been successful and I'd even go so far as to say that the venom directed at Kevin Gregg was over the top given his performance. Doesn't matter.

I guess it's a cup half empty vs cup half full issue. Adam Jones is certainly not a perfect player. He's not even great. He will probably always swing at too many pitches in the dirt and will make the occassional misstep in the outfield. On the other hand, he works his butt off, is as fan friendly as any player we have, hits for power at a premium position and plays at least a solid centerfield.

If he keeps it up through the life of his contract (or perhaps add a year or two), he stands a pretty good chance of being the best centerfielder (overall) this franchise has ever had. And if some folks miss out on enjoying the ride -- warts and all -- it's their loss.

[DrungoHazewood]

You just reminded me how amazing Brooksie's 16 straight were....Typing it out adds to its awesomeness -

1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975

Somehow reading "1960 to 1975" psychologically lessens it for me, but to see each year...wow, just wow.

Don't take this wrong, I think Brooks just might be the best defender at any position, ever.

But his 16 consecutive Gold Gloves is pretty clearly a huge fail from the voters and the system. It's a case of them not really knowing who was best, and just throwing up their hands and giving it to Brooks. There is absolutely no way in heck that Brooks was better than Graig Nettles and Aurelio Rodriguez and everyone else every year for 16 years.

Look at Jim Kaat. He also won 16 GGs. Including 1969 when he made 8 errors in 46 chances, for a .826 fielding percentage. It was pretty obvious that the voters didn't know or care how Kaat fielded that year, he was just the guy who got the GG every year.

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't get all the fuss. For some reason certain players become lightening rods and sadly, Adam Jones is one of those players. I'd also say the fans have been harder on Chris Tillman than other members of the calvery who haven't been successful and I'd even go so far as to say that the venom directed at Kevin Gregg was over the top given his performance. Doesn't matter.

I guess it's a cup half empty vs cup half full issue. Adam Jones is certainly not a perfect player. He's not even great. He will probably always swing at too many pitches in the dirt and will make the occassional misstep in the outfield. On the other hand, he works his butt off, is as fan friendly as any player we have, hits for power at a premium position and plays at least a solid centerfield.

If he keeps it up through the life of his contract (or perhaps add a year or two), he stands a pretty good chance of being the best centerfielder (overall) this franchise has ever had. And if some folks miss out on enjoying the ride -- warts and all -- it's their loss.

I think its possible to appreciate the fact Jones is a very good player, be very glad he's on the Orioles, and also admit that there's not much objective evidence for him being a GG-caliber center fielder (and not within 20 miles of Trout).

[DrungoHazewood]

It's admirable, but he had to be convinced that he would have to play deeper. Why? Because he doesn't have the skill set of Paul Blair.

Also because it's a different game than when Blair played. Paul Blair couldn't play as shallow as Paul Blair if he was a 25-year-old today, because a lot more players hit for power. In 1970 there were 64 players who had 300+ PA and an ISO under .100. In 2012 there were 41 despite there being 20% more teams and players.

[ShaneDawg85]

Don't take this wrong, I think Brooks just might be the best defender at any position, ever.

But his 16 consecutive Gold Gloves is pretty clearly a huge fail from the voters and the system. It's a case of them not really knowing who was best, and just throwing up their hands and giving it to Brooks. There is absolutely no way in heck that Brooks was better than Graig Nettles and Aurelio Rodriguez and everyone else every year for 16 years.

Look at Jim Kaat. He also won 16 GGs. Including 1969 when he made 8 errors in 46 chances, for a .826 fielding percentage. It was pretty obvious that the voters didn't know or care how Kaat fielded that year, he was just the guy who got the GG every year.

Watch what you say, otherwise you'll be accused of not being a true Orioles fan.

[Rick_Schu]

Awesome, congrats all around! All three of those guys should be proud! I'm sure Buck is thrilled. I think it is another huge huge step forward for the franchise as a whole in terms of getting a little respect, and makes the season that much more incredible, considering how many errors we had in the 1st half.

We have Gold Glove caliber players all over the field. Markakis and McClouth both have one. And Manny and Reynolds were crazy down the stretch, they could both have one if they keep it up!

And as far as Jones being deserving, I think the coaches and managers might see a lot of things from the inside that a lot of us don't. Go O's!

[Singleton]

I think its possible to appreciate the fact Jones is a very good player, be very glad he's on the Orioles, and also admit that there's not much objective evidence for him being a GG-caliber center fielder (and not within 20 miles of Trout).

Of course there is. As I was trying to suggest by my opening sentence, I wasn't particularly focused on the gold glove debate. I don't really care whether he wins or not. I don't think it was crazy he won but if others do, so be it. I was more focused on the belief that Jones gets, in my opinion, more than his fair share of criticim for his shortcomings.

[Frobby]

If he keeps it up through the life of his contract (or perhaps add a year or two), he stands a pretty good chance of being the best centerfielder (overall) this franchise has ever had. And if some folks miss out on enjoying the ride -- warts and all -- it's their loss.

Paul Blair --36 rWAR as an Oriole (13 years)

Brady Anderson -- 32 rWAR as an Oriole (14 years)

Al Bumbry -- 23 rWAR as an Oriole (13 years)

Adam Jones -- 12 rWAR as an Oriole (5 years)

That's basically your list. Jones is under contract for six years. He should be past Bumbry by then, and getting pretty close to Brady.

[Singleton]

Paul Blair --36 rWAR as an Oriole (13 years)

Brady Anderson -- 32 rWAR as an Oriole (14 years)

Al Bumbry -- 23 rWAR as an Oriole (13 years)

Adam Jones -- 12 rWAR as an Oriole (5 years)

That's basically your list. Jones is under contract for six years. He should be past Bumbry by then, and getting pretty close to Brady.

Ha! I knew someone would go there was just trying to guess whether it would be you or Drungo. I did put the parenthetical of adding a year or two Regardless, if he stays healthy, he should get close.

[Frobby]

Ha! I knew someone would go there was just trying to guess whether it would be you or Drungo. I did put the parenthetical of adding a year or two Regardless, if he stays healthy, he should get close.

I was just adding this to illustrate your point, not contradict it. All three of the others spent at least 13 years as an Oriole. Adam should be right up there with them. Hopefully when 2018 rolls around we will still want to keep him for a few more seasons.

[wildcard]

Sounds like some are upset because Jones winning GGs makes it harder for Buck to move him from CF. Guess what? Buck was never going to move Jones out of CF anyway. Just like he was never going to move Hardy from SS. Both are arguments that in reality are not something we would never see happen as long a Buck is here.

The argument about Blair is really about another place and another time. In Blair's day the outfields were huge. Paul was amazing. Camden is almost too small for Blair to show his best.

As for Trout, if he plays as well as he did this year, and he does it for 150 games instead of 108 in CF next year, and Jones plays just like he did this year, I think Trout wins the GG. So if Jones wants to keep winning GG, he better step up his game.