Note to Boras---Wieters rated the 9th worst "framing"-

[mdbdotcom]

It could be that Matt is fine at framing pitches. He's just so big that most umpires probably never see the low pitches he catches. They just guess.

The solution is to make a new rule that umpires have to be at least 6' 6".

[Can_of_corn]

Here you go.

Thanks.

Oh so Matt was 9th worst, at a rather reasonable -9 runs.

So the OP misrepresented the article.

Here is the data that the article used.

http://statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php

No mention of methodology is present. Might just a guy, his DVR and his opinion.

Might be a lot of work put in.

[Number5]

30 runs is over three wins a year from framing. If Molina could get a team three wins (not talking about the 5.26 wins in 80 games started in 2012) he would be getting rather larger contracts then the one he just signed for.

The problem with trying to quantify pitch framing is when to assign credit/blame to the catcher as opposed to another factor.

Yes, it seems impossible to truly quantify to me. Are we actually trying to credit or blame catchers for umpiring inconsistencies? Or are we really surprised that a catcher on a team that has a pitching staff full of guys with excellent control and command would score high in "pitch framing"?

[SerenityNow]

Matt's size does not help him in this department.

Sometimes I feel like Wieters doesn't stick a pitch he knows is a ball because he doesn't want to show up the ump and get worse calls because of it. I don't know if that's his strategy but that's my guess. I feel like he rarely sticks and holds a pitch.

[Can_of_corn]

Yes, it seems impossible to truly quantify to me. Are we actually trying to credit or blame catchers for umpiring inconsistencies? Or are we really surprised that a catcher on a team that has a pitching staff full of guys with excellent control and command would score high in "pitch framing"?

It could be possible but to do it right you would have to spend a lot of time looking at stuff like Ump tendencies, how the score effects the strike zone, the weather, is it a travel day ect ect ect.

For instance it is a known fact that the called strike zone expands on a 3-0 count and retracts on an 0-2 count. There are probably dozens of factors like that to consider.

[CA-ORIOLE]

30 runs is over three wins a year from framing. If Molina could get a team three wins (not talking about the 5.26 wins in 80 games started in 2012) he would be getting rather larger contracts then the one he just signed for.

The problem with trying to quantify pitch framing is when to assign credit/blame to the catcher as opposed to another factor.

In 80 starts? 709 innings? That doesn't seem extreme?

Of course I have also read that the Rays' pitchers' OPS against was pretty stable in 2012 regardless of who was catching. If Framing has that significant an impact wouldn't it be reflected in things like OPS against?

I think there is a danger of double counting some of this, sure. Some of it may be attributable to the pitcher/system. I get it. He's been a negative defensive catcher in other areas for three straight years by DRS. He's also not much of a hitter. Instead of being fixated on one years data, what does he average in this area over 3-4 years?

[Can_of_corn]

I think there is a danger of double counting some of this, sure. Some of it may be attributable to the pitcher/system. I get it. He's been a negative defesnive catcher in other areas for three years by DRS. He's not much of a hitter. Instead of being fixated on one years data, what does he average in this area over 3-4 years?

The only data I have from the same source over that type of time period is Fast's original work.

Once Fast took a front office job other folks took up the mission of they to quantify this stuff.

I do think that Molina is the best overall framer out there, my issue is with the degree of impact that has.

[Stotle]

In 80 starts? 709 innings? That doesn't seem extreme?

Of course I have also read that the Rays' pitchers' OPS against was pretty stable in 2012 regardless of who was catching. If Framing has that significant an impact wouldn't it be reflected in things like OPS against?

Not extreme in that it is a believable number for me -- particularly if you are talking about the best in the game at that particular skill. Again, the "net" might not be .5-.8 per starter if he's -.3-.8 in other facets of the defensive game.

Those 50 runs don't make Molina a five wins addition over someone with a net zero framing skill. They are one component of his total package. It could be a particular player's 1st-to-3rd skill is worth 20 runs alone, but it's value is offset by his caught stealing being a minus 20.

[CA-ORIOLE]

The only data I have from the same source over that type of time period is Fast's original work.

Once Fast took a front office job other folks took up the mission of they to quantify this stuff.

I do think that Molina is the best overall framer out there, my issue is with the degree of impact that has.

I've seen other studies on this that have covered multiple years. Maybe it wasn't Fast's, but nobody was averaging anywhere close to 50 runs a season over multiple years. I agree that the number seems high, but I think you're just getting too fixated on one year/number.

[Stotle]

I was wondering if his height affected his framing, but couldn't think of why it would. Can you explain?

Biggest factor is usually forced perspective of umpire. It's not tied solely to size, but there is a correlation (along with other factors).

[Can_of_corn]

I've seen other studies on this that have covered multiple years. Maybe it wasn't Fast's, but nobody was averaging anywhere close to 50 runs a season over multiple years. I agree that the number seems high, but I think you're just getting too fixated on one year/number.

If it sets your mind at ease I think 30 runs a season for someone of Molina's workload seems high as well.

I think that if that degree of manipulation was happening it would show up in other stats.

[Stotle]

Sometimes I feel like Wieters doesn't stick a pitch he knows is a ball because he doesn't want to show up the ump and get worse calls because of it. I don't know if that's his strategy but that's my guess. I feel like he rarely sticks and holds a pitch.

A lot goes into pitch framing -- some of it is teachable and some of it goes to natural body tendencies that differ from person to person.

[CA-ORIOLE]

If it sets your mind at ease I think 30 runs a season for someone of Molina's workload seems high as well.

30 runs saved over a season would be around 0.18 in team ERA. I'd estimate that a ML staff throws around 19,000 pitches (very rough estimate) over the course of a season. i wish I could find my old data/study on this, but I think the really good guys were "averaging" around 15-20 runs per season at this and Wieters wasn't one of them.

I think that if that degree of manipulation was happening it would show up in other stats.

Again, not saying you're wrong and the analytics are complex, but it's something that is taken into consideration.

[Can_of_corn]

30 runs saved over a season would be around 0.18 in team ERA. I'd estimate that a ML staff throws around 19,000 pitches (very rough estimate) over the course of a season. i wish I could fine my old data/study on this but I think the really good guys were "averaging" around 15-20 runs per season at this and Wieters wasn't one of them.

Again, not saying you're wrong and the analytics are complex, but it's something that is taken into consideration.

Molina doesn't catch near as much as someone like Wieters.

And as I stated earlier, I am not discounting there is an impact, just the degree of impact. I think some of the folks checking for this are liberal in assigning catcher credit.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Molina doesn't catch near as much as someone like Wieters.

And as I stated earlier, I am not discounting there is an impact, just the degree of impact. I think some of the folks checking for this are liberal in assigning catcher credit.

Got it. I think the numbers I quoted you were rate/120 or something like that. Maddon and Friedman certainly believe there is something significant there, and the Rays are on the cutting edge on analytics. Anyways, have the last word.