Camden Depot's Shepherd: Failed Physicals and Testing the Orioles' Success

[Ohfan67]

I think your viewpoint is reasonable from a third party position applying logic and reason to a certain set of facts. But if you add to those facts the day-in day-out impressions of most of the industry as to how the Orioles do business, the calculus changes dramatically.

By way of another example, I spoke to an area scout right after Mr. Duquette took over. I pointed out Baltimore had new bosses up top and would likely be cleaning house and looking to bring in fresh blood -- asked this scout "if offered a pay bump and promotion would you jump to Baltimore?"

His response: "Not a chance. No way."

Folks in the industry view Baltimore as dysfunctional and, often times, schizophrenic. There's a very real chance Baltimore did almost everything it should have done with regards to Balfour, but it's way too easy for the industry to believe otherwise because it fits the narrative.

Team agrees to deal, then at the last second backs out because "Baltimore".

In a vacuum: of course a team should listen to its experts; of course a team shouldn't take huge contractual risks with aging players; of course red flags should not be ignored. But none of this is happening in a vacuum.

I think this gets at the core. On the surface what the Orioles did was totally fine, good business, and they played by the rules. But unfortunately there is a tremendous amount of Angelos-related history and plenty of evidence that the organization is still pretty dysfunctional. Frobby and others are correct in that the Orioles "handled" it correctly and, without other evidence, it seems like they were doing due diligence and that there really was a serious concern over the medical evaluation. But, it is also reasonable to believe that Angelos or Angelos family/cronies didn't like the deal and that they used the wear and tear on a middle aged reliever as an excuse to try to renegotiate or cancel the deal. Unfortunately given the history of Angelos and the dysfunctional organization he has created you can't dismiss this as conspiracy theory fantasy. I think there is plenty of evidence that Angelos and/or his cronies are still hindering the O's. The inexplicable budget (and seemingly lack thereof...I don't think any O's GM has had a real budget number in many hears), DD and Buck have made statements in the last two years about what the team needs and then nothing happens, etc. DD seems incredibly energetic and active and DD and Buck are not stupid. I believe they would fill gaping holes in the lineup if they had a budget number and free reign to use the money. Anyway, I think Stotle's description of the situation is dead on. I find myself wanting to support the O's and wanting to believe that this was all on the up and up, but there's just too much history not to be very suspicious. The O's are basically guilty until proven innocent in most cases and that is Angelos' fault.

[Stotle]

What do we really know about what discussions the Orioles had with Balfour, and how good their reasons were? We know Balfour disagreed with them, but we don't know if his position is reasonable or not. What we do know is that the Orioles did not announce that Balfour had been signed, and didn't get into a pissing contest after the deal broke down. That was all on Balfour. So while I might agree, if I had actual knowledge of the facts, that the O's decision to back off this deal was an unreasonable one, I have no problem with how the O's handled the "public" side of the matter. That's all on Balfour so far as I'm concerned.

Would Balfour have been better served with a calm and collected, "I have no idea what's going on with that org. THe medicals are fine, and are the same as they've been the last three seasons"? Sure -- I'd assume so.

I've noted Balfour could be acting in a wholly unreasonable manner.

We do have historical evidence as to how this stuff generally plays out when something unexpected comes up on medicals, and it generally doesn't involve one side blowing their lid. But that is not in and of itself evidence of fault.

As far as publicly handling the situation, I don't know what to day. Baltimore called the press conference, then cancelled it. Could be they (probably is the case) they were caught off guard by the medicals, and the advice from medical staff. That's the best case scenario. Still think it's probably a good idea to keep things a little more hush hush if shoulder MRIs for a mid-30s pitcher with shoulder issues in his past is going blow up your deal, but that's just me being overly cautious.

[Stotle]

Then that should make Balfour look bad, not the Orioles. The Orioles' reasoning for nixing the deal were legitimate.

*insert Pollyanna comment below*

I don't think Balfour generally has any trouble making himself look bad. Interesting that a guy that is not really well loved around baseball is getting sympathy from the industry. Worthy of note, at least.

[russ snyder]

Then why didn't the media thrash the Red Sox last year because of Napoli? I know Napoli quickly renegotiated, but what if he hadn't?

When is the last time that the national media thrashed the Red Sox?

Further, the fact that Napoli signed the renegotiated contract very quickly kept the media from thrashing the either side.

Conversely, IMO Balfour's very public reaction to this has caused the national media to jump on the Orioles front office.

I don't believe that the Orioles negotiated in bad faith with Balfour.

However, some national columnists are are using the Balfour situation as an opportunity to trash the Orioles front office.

Balfour's public reaction has made this a national story. I know that he and his camp are in damage control mode, but his comments about

the Orioles lack of respect are out of bounds and unprofessional IMO.

Bottom line, Napoli handled the situation like a professional and the Red Sox are media darlings compared to the Orioles IMO.

[SteveO]

When is the last time that the national media thrashed the Red Sox?

Further, the fact that Napoli signed the renegotiated contract very quickly kept the media from thrashing the either side.

Conversely, IMO Balfour's very public reaction to this has caused the national media to jump on the Orioles front office.

I don't believe that the Orioles negotiated in bad faith with Balfour.

However, some national columnists are are using the Balfour situation as an opportunity to trash the Orioles front office.

Balfour's public reaction has made this a national story. I know that he and his camp are in damage control mode, but his comments about

the Orioles lack of respect are out of bounds and unprofessional IMO.

Bottom line, Napoli handled the situation like a professional and the Red Sox are media darlings compared to the Orioles IMO.

Let me give you a little dose of reality.

Why would anyone in the media believe a word this franchise says? Why would you believe a franchise that runs around crying pauper when it controls one of the largest media markets in the US while paying peanuts for the rights to said market.

Save your numbers and figures, we all know books can be cooked any number of ways to hide or funnel profits elsewhere. If MASN is not a license to print money then Pete is an idiot. The former board of Enron could make MASN highly profitable. A penny pinching miser like Pete can do a lot more than that.

Bottom line is that the Angelos ownership has been an abject failure in every sense of the word. From fielding subpar teams to not capitalizing on talented ones its a series of missteps and gaffs that illuminate that making money and not winning is the priority at OPACY under the Angelos regime.

[Can_of_corn]

When is the last time that the national media thrashed the Red Sox?

Further, the fact that Napoli signed the renegotiated contract very quickly kept the media from thrashing the either side.

Conversely, IMO Balfour's very public reaction to this has caused the national media to jump on the Orioles front office.

I don't believe that the Orioles negotiated in bad faith with Balfour.

However, some national columnists are are using the Balfour situation as an opportunity to trash the Orioles front office.

Balfour's public reaction has made this a national story. I know that he and his camp are in damage control mode, but his comments about

the Orioles lack of respect are out of bounds and unprofessional IMO.

Bottom line, Napoli handled the situation like a professional and the Red Sox are media darlings compared to the Orioles IMO.

The last quarter of the 2012 season. How about the Fried Chicken and Beer reports?

[russ snyder]

Let me give you a little dose of reality.

Why would anyone in the media believe a word this franchise says? Why would you believe a franchise that runs around crying pauper when it controls one of the largest media markets in the US while paying peanuts for the rights to said market.

Save your numbers and figures, we all know books can be cooked any number of ways to hide or funnel profits elsewhere. If MASN is not a license to print money then Pete is an idiot. The former board of Enron could make MASN highly profitable. A penny pinching miser like Pete can do a lot more than that.

Bottom line is that the Angelos ownership has been an abject failure in every sense of the word. From fielding subpar teams to not capitalizing on talented ones its a series of missteps and gaffs that illuminate that making money and not winning is the priority at OPACY under the Angelos regime.

I live in a world of reality. You are the one that is buying into the conjecture that the Orioles are "too cheap" or negotiated in bad faith for several weeks with a free agent. Show me proof, and I'll concede to your version of "reality".

The "reality" is that the franchise is limited by privacy laws to really say anything about Balfours's medical situation. So they really have not been able to say anything specific that I can believe or not. You would only believe that the Orioles "crying pauper' if you believed that they negotiated in bad faith. There's nothing in my view that indicates that they did so. The reality is that Balfour feels differently. I hope that this case goes to a grievance hearing so that the Orioles are able to give their side. This way, we may find out what really happened. The Orioles and PA made a sweet deal with MASN, what's wrong with that?

I'm not the poster who talks about the balance sheets, but I'm sure MASN is profitable. ( BTW, thanks for telling me to "save my figures and number". Nothing like limiting real facts when your dealing with reality.) I guess you'd like to see PA funnel some of this money into player contracts. I would too, however, the reality is that it's his money to spend. ( Not yours or mine.) You can call him a "penny pincher', but I'm sure most of the office furniture at the warehouse was not bought at Ikea.

I'm not going to argue with you that one cannot discount the failures of the Angelos regime. After all, the Orioles endured fourteen straight losing seasons. I'll grant you that at times it has appeared that the teams' profit margin may have taken precedence over the teams winning percentage.However, with the core group of players that the Oriles have presently, I don't beleive that this is one of those times.

Lastly, IMO the Balfour situation is more of a business deal falling apart than PA or the Orioles "pinching pennies." The Orioles made another offer that Balfour turned down. The "reality"is that he chose not to sign with the Orioles, and the team has to deal with the fall out because of HIPA laws.

The"dose" of reality that you administered was nothing much more than whining about profits not spent by an owner that you consider to be a miser.

I don't think that PA is perfect, but the reality of the Balfour situation is that the Orioles are prohibited by law to fully disclose their reasons for altering the Balfour deal. Any bashing by the media or fans is based on conjecture and past occurrences.

[russ snyder]

The last quarter of the 2012 season. How about the Fried Chicken and Beer reports?

Good point. Those guys were playing video games too.

I forgot about this.

[clapdiddy]

I live in a world of reality. You are the one that is buying into the conjecture that the Orioles are "too cheap" or negotiated in bad faith for several weeks with a free agent. Show me proof, and I'll concede to your version of "reality".

The "reality" is that the franchise is limited by privacy laws to really say anything about Balfours's medical situation. So they really have not been able to say anything specific that I can believe or not. You would only believe that the Orioles "crying pauper' if you believed that they negotiated in bad faith. There's nothing in my view that indicates that they did so. The reality is that Balfour feels differently. I hope that this case goes to a grievance hearing so that the Orioles are able to give their side. This way, we may find out what really happened. The Orioles and PA made a sweet deal with MASN, what's wrong with that?

I'm not the poster who talks about the balance sheets, but I'm sure MASN is profitable. ( BTW, thanks for telling me to "save my figures and number". Nothing like limiting real facts when your dealing with reality.) I guess you'd like to see PA funnel some of this money into player contracts. I would too, however, the reality is that it's his money to spend. ( Not yours or mine.) You can call him a "penny pincher', but I'm sure most of the office furniture at the warehouse was not bought at Ikea.

I'm not going to argue with you that one cannot discount the failures of the Angelos regime. After all, the Orioles endured fourteen straight losing seasons. I'll grant you that at times it has appeared that the teams' profit margin may have taken precedence over the teams winning percentage.However, with the core group of players that the Oriles have presently, I don't beleive that this is one of those times.

Lastly, IMO the Balfour situation is more of a business deal falling apart than PA or the Orioles "pinching pennies." The Orioles made another offer that Balfour turned down. The "reality"is that he chose not to sign with the Orioles, and the team has to deal with the fall out because of HIPA laws.

The"dose" of reality that you administered was nothing much more than whining about profits not spent by an owner that you consider to be a miser.

I don't think that PA is perfect, but the reality of the Balfour situation is that the Orioles are prohibited by law to fully disclose their reasons for altering the Balfour deal. Any bashing by the media or fans is based on conjecture and past occurrences.

I agree with a lot of what you say here, but the fact is that Peter Angelos LIED about what MASN would do for the Orioles.

He stated (Sorprano has posted this many times) that an RSN would put us in a more competitive position with the other teams in the division. If he is, in fact, making large sums of money off of MASN and NOT putting it back into the Orioles, then he is a LIAR.

No one on OH is suggesting that we should have a 200M...or even a 150M...payroll. If MASN is making the money it SHOULD be making, then there is no reason this club couldn't afford a 125-140M payroll.

[russ snyder]

I agree with a lot of what you say here, but the fact is that Peter Angelos LIED about what MASN would do for the Orioles.

He stated (Sorprano has posted this many times) that an RSN would put us in a more competitive position with the other teams in the division. If he is, in fact, making large sums of money off of MASN and NOT putting it back into the Orioles, then he is a LIAR.

No one on OH is suggesting that we should have a 200M...or even a 150M...payroll. If MASN is making the money it SHOULD be making, then there is no reason this club couldn't afford a 125-140M payroll.

I agree with a lot of what you are stating here as well. In fact, I state in my response that I too would like to see more money funneled into the team. particularly the payroll.

If this is true, he is a liar about the MASN money. However, This does not mean that PA or the Orioles negotiated in bad faith with Balfour.

I think that the Orioles would be in a more competitive position with a bump in the payroll. Despite what some may think, I'm no apologist, however, I'm not going to bash PA and the Orioles on the Balfour situation based on the facts that have been presented at this point in time. Lastly, if others want to do so based on past and present transgressions, I'm fine with that as ell. However, those who are doing so are acting on supposition IMO. We may never know the reality of the Balfour story because the Orioles may never have the chance to fully tell their side.

[clapdiddy]

I agree with a lot of what you are stating here as well. In fact, I state in my response that I too would like to see more money funneled into the team. particularly the payroll.

If this is true, he is a liar about the MASN money. However, This does not mean that PA or the Orioles negotiated in bad faith with Balfour.

I think that the Orioles would be in a more competitive psotion with a bump in the payroll. Despite what some may think, I'm no apologist, however, I'm not going to bash PA and the Orioles on the Balfour situation based on the facts that I have been able to find. Lastly, if others want to do so based on past and present transgressions, I'm fine with that as ell. However, those who are doing so are acting on supposition IMO. We may never know the reality of the Balfour story because the Orioles may never have the chance to fully tell their side.

I meant to add a caveat on the end of my post that I agreed wholeheartedly about the Balfour situation. I don't think the Orioles would have made the announcement public regarding Balfour and then try to re-work the deal unless their doctors were genuinely concerned.

It probably could have been handled a lot better (from both parties), because it just adds to the Orioles' "mystique" a bit more. It makes the Orioles look incompetent because of recent history.

[russ snyder]

I meant to add a caveat on the end of my post that I agreed wholeheartedly about the Balfour situation. I don't think the Orioles would have made the announcement public regarding Balfour and then try to re-work the deal unless their doctors were genuinely concerned.

It probably could have been handled a lot better (from both parties), because it just adds to the Orioles' "mystique" a bit more. It makes the Orioles look incompetent because of recent history.

Right. As Stotle pointed out, I can see where some in the baseball industry view the Balfour situation as evidence of the Orioles perceived dysfunction. While the Orioles may have earned this perception by some of their past decisions,IMO they should not base their business decisions based on what others in the industry perceptions are.

[Frobby]

As far as publicly handling the situation, I don't know what to day. Baltimore called the press conference, then cancelled it. Could be they (probably is the case) they were caught off guard by the medicals, and the advice from medical staff. That's the best case scenario. Still think it's probably a good idea to keep things a little more hush hush if shoulder MRIs for a mid-30s pitcher with shoulder issues in his past is going blow up your deal, but that's just me being overly cautious.

My understanding (from listening to Roch on Wall to Wall Baseball this weekend) is that the Orioles had not formally called a press conference. But I do think word was somehow circulating of an expected press conference.

I don't know, in this day and age it keeps getting harder and harder to keep a lid on anything. It would have been best for Balfour if his negotiations with the Orioles, and his physical, had been kept completely secret. Is that even possible in the Age of Twitter? In general, I think the agents find it to be in the players' best interests to have lots of rumors and information floating around about the offers that clubs have made and the players' demands.

[SteveO]

I live in a world of reality. You are the one that is buying into the conjecture that the Orioles are "too cheap" or negotiated in bad faith for several weeks with a free agent. Show me proof, and I'll concede to your version of "reality".

The "reality" is that the franchise is limited by privacy laws to really say anything about Balfours's medical situation. So they really have not been able to say anything specific that I can believe or not. You would only believe that the Orioles "crying pauper' if you believed that they negotiated in bad faith. There's nothing in my view that indicates that they did so. The reality is that Balfour feels differently. I hope that this case goes to a grievance hearing so that the Orioles are able to give their side. This way, we may find out what really happened. The Orioles and PA made a sweet deal with MASN, what's wrong with that?

I'm not the poster who talks about the balance sheets, but I'm sure MASN is profitable. ( BTW, thanks for telling me to "save my figures and number". Nothing like limiting real facts when your dealing with reality.) I guess you'd like to see PA funnel some of this money into player contracts. I would too, however, the reality is that it's his money to spend. ( Not yours or mine.) You can call him a "penny pincher', but I'm sure most of the office furniture at the warehouse was not bought at Ikea.

I'm not going to argue with you that one cannot discount the failures of the Angelos regime. After all, the Orioles endured fourteen straight losing seasons. I'll grant you that at times it has appeared that the teams' profit margin may have taken precedence over the teams winning percentage.However, with the core group of players that the Oriles have presently, I don't beleive that this is one of those times.

Lastly, IMO the Balfour situation is more of a business deal falling apart than PA or the Orioles "pinching pennies." The Orioles made another offer that Balfour turned down. The "reality"is that he chose not to sign with the Orioles, and the team has to deal with the fall out because of HIPA laws.

The"dose" of reality that you administered was nothing much more than whining about profits not spent by an owner that you consider to be a miser.

I don't think that PA is perfect, but the reality of the Balfour situation is that the Orioles are prohibited by law to fully disclose their reasons for altering the Balfour deal. Any bashing by the media or fans is based on conjecture and past occurrences.

I get that they are bound by HIPPA to not disclose their reasons for rejecting the Balfour deal. I also think that is why its a tactic Pete has employed in the past (not passing the physical). Its convenient to not have to explain why you changed your mind if your Pete. Frank Wren was pretty clear about that and the fact that it was a favorite Angelos tactic. But I guess he just has it out for the O's like everyone else.

I don't expect Pete to dip in his own pockets to sign players and I do not expect to sign Choo, Ellsbury, Tanaka or top flight talent like that. If the Orioles cannot manage a payroll of 110-120 million with the market and MASN while still being profitable then someone there is a complete fool. I expect Pete who has pocketed profits year after year while saying when the time comes he would spend to do just that and be a man of his word. to put back into his team when the opportunity presents. I continued to buy season tickets when this team sucked, I believed that when the time came they would reward that loyalty by giving us something to cheer about, giving us hope. Instead to this point they have poured gas on the bed and lit it ablaze IMO. I know buying tickets and merchandise is no big deal to you maybe but for my family we sacrificed other things cause we love baseball, love the O's players and hoped that he would be true to his word. I am disappointing, angry and frankly feel betrayed as a fan. I am not willing to close my eyes and pretend like its all good. This man is a blight on a once proud franchise.

If this Balfour thing is nothing more than what the O's say it is, then Pete is nothing more than the little boy who cried wolf....finally he is telling the truth but nobody believes him. Why should they though when just about everything that has come out of his mouth regarding this team is an outright lie. You ask us for evidence, I submit there is 20+ yrs of evidence there in front of your face what this man is all about as an owner. If in this one case he is being upfront you will have to excuse me for not caring and not believing his lies anymore.

[Stotle]

My understanding (from listening to Roch on Wall to Wall Baseball this weekend) is that the Orioles had not formally called a press conference. But I do think word was somehow circulating of an expected press conference.

I don't know, in this day and age it keeps getting harder and harder to keep a lid on anything. It would have been best for Balfour if his negotiations with the Orioles, and his physical, had been kept completely secret. Is that even possible in the Age of Twitter? In general, I think the agents find it to be in the players' best interests to have lots of rumors and information floating around about the offers that clubs have made and the players' demands.

The Blue Jays had a trade knocked down because of issues with medicals earlier this month. Word didn't spread until a few weeks after it happened. The Rangers made clear last Thursday they were done making any major moves and signed Choo on Sunday. This stuff is not THAT difficult to keep under your hat. It just isn't.