New to the forum, and a question

[purple@orange]

Hey everyone, I'm just curious. It seems like some people in this town and on this forum refuse to give Adam Jones any credit. Here's a guy who's won 3 Gold Gloves as a center fielder, hits for power drives in runs, has really become involved with the community, and is the clubhouse leader. Yet some people keep whining about him. He chases too many pitches, he blows bubbles in center field, he talks too much trash, etc.

Meanwhile Markakis is in right field stealing the teams money. He hits about .280-.285, below average power, basically just draws a bunch of walks and hits mostly bases empty doubles. IMHO he doesn't provide nearly enough offense for his position or his salary. But he gets a free pass from everyone, including the local media. I remember Jim Palmer comparing Markakis to George Brett. Are you serious? On his best day Markakis isn't half the player Brett was. But the fans here love him, he doesn't get half the flak Jones does, even though Jones is a helluva lot better player.

What am I missing here? Is it a racial thing? I don't get it.

[Tony-OH]

I think you should probably read the forum a bit more because Markakis takes his load of guff around here. As for Jones, honestly, I think most people really like Jones. Sure, he has some bad ABs and can drop some balls, but I doubt there are many people on this forum that would want to get rid of him. Personally, I think he'll end up one of the best Orioles All-time.

[WEAVERMAN]

I think you should probably read the forum a bit more because Markakis takes his load of guff around here. As for Jones, honestly, I think most people really like Jones. Sure, he has some bad ABs and can drop some balls, but I doubt there are many people on this forum that would want to get rid of him. Personally, I think he'll end up one of the best Orioles All-time.

That's all true, and I hope the poster stays away from the game threads. That's where many of us are upset if Adam isn't hitting .1000 with RISP.

[Baldimore, hon]

I do feel like race has something to do with it, even if it isn't consciously. I love Adam. It bothers me that he swings at breaking pitches outside all the time and that he over slides second base and gets tagged out doing it all the time (is it just me or is he the only person I ever see doing that on a regular basis?). But, he plays hard and is a good leader and a very good player. For me, Jones is so close to being a flat out superstar. That's the frustrating part for me. Markakis on the other hand is a good player. Paul O'Neill type. Stealing money? No. But, Markakis make very few "mistakes." So, despite the fact that he isn't as good there are fewer things to be upset about. There are no fixable glaring holes in his game the way there are for AJ. I think that is the greatest difference between the two. AJ is the better player, but there are a few minor/major (depends on how you look at them) things that if he could fix would make him a stud. A long time ago, we all thought Markakis would develop into a guy like that, as well. It just didn't happen and I think we're all resigned to that fact at this point.

[Anonsnides]

I do feel like race has something to do with it, even if it isn't consciously. I love Adam. It bothers me that he swings at breaking pitches outside all the time and that he over slides second base and gets tagged out doing it all the time (is it just me or is he the only person I ever see doing that on a regular basis?). But, he plays hard and is a good leader and a very good player. For me, Jones is so close to being a flat out superstar. That's the frustrating part for me. Markakis on the other hand is a good player. Paul O'Neill type. Stealing money? No. But, Markakis make very few "mistakes." So, despite the fact that he isn't as good there are fewer things to be upset about. There are no fixable glaring holes in his game the way there are for AJ. I think that is the greatest difference between the two. AJ is the better player, but there are a few minor/major (depends on how you look at them) things that if he could fix would make him a stud. A long time ago, we all thought Markakis would develop into a guy like that, as well. It just didn't happen and I think we're all resigned to that fact at this point.

Why does every thing have to involve race with some people?

[Frobby]

Speaking as someone whose favorite player is Markakis, I can tell you it has nothing to do with race. My two favorite all-time Orioles are Frank Robinson and Eddie Murray.

As to Jones, I couldn't care less about bubble blowing or his public persona. His tendency to swing at pitches in the dirt drives me nuts because it seems like it should be something that happens less as he gains experience, yet he simply hasn't made much progress on that front. I was listening to last night's game in my car, Jones got to a two-strike count, and Joe Angel actually said on the air, "I sense a slider in the dirt is coming." And it did, and Jones swung at it and missed. When the friggin' announcer knows it's coming, you have to think the player knows it's coming, or should. Jones seems willing to trade 10 strikeouts on terrible pitches to avoid the 10% chance that he'll be caught looking at strike three -- something that happened to him all of six times in all of 2013. It's a bad tradeoff and the pitchers know it.

That said, I still like Jones a lot. He's a deserving all-star, and a team leader. He has one flaw that really bugs me, is all. My wife has some flaws that really bug me, too (but I don't tell her that).

As to Markakis, he's my favorite for two reasons. One, I just like his approach at the plate, and I've liked it from literally his first at bat in the majors. Second, he's a home grown player who came along at the exact moment that I needed someone to latch onto -- the aftermath of the whole 2005 debacle. If Jones had been in the Orioles system for a couple of years and had joined the club in the spring of 2006, he'd probably be my favorite. But he wasn't, so he isn't, even though I'd readily admit he is the better overall baseball player.

[luismatos4prez]

Yet some people keep whining about him.

You must be new to discussing sports with other people. People whined about how Cal Ripken was selfish for playing every day even when he was in a slump. People whined about how the Ravens special teams gave up a touchdown in the dominant 2000 Super Bowl. People whined about how Manny wasn't an outstanding hitter last year. People called Wieters a bust for only becoming a GG, AS catcher. People seem to believe that Chen suddenly can't compete in the AL East anymore.

People whine too much. It's nothing specific to AJ. In fact, I guarantee if you polled the OH he would be the overwhelming fan favorite. He left money on the table to stay here while Davis and Wieters appear to have no intention of doing so. The few hyper-critical posts on the OH can't be extrapolated to mean whatever you're implying they mean.

[Moshagge3]

Game thread comments have to be taken with a huge grain of salt, you know.

[SerenityNow]

You must be new to discussing sports with other people. People whined about how Cal Ripken was selfish for playing every day even when he was in a slump. People whined about how the Ravens special teams gave up a touchdown in the dominant 2000 Super Bowl. People whined about how Manny wasn't an outstanding hitter last year. People called Wieters a bust for only becoming a GG, AS catcher. People seem to believe that Chen suddenly can't compete in the AL East anymore.

People whine too much. It's nothing specific to AJ. In fact, I guarantee if you polled the OH he would be the overwhelming fan favorite. He left money on the table to stay here while Davis and Wieters appear to have no intention of doing so. The few hyper-critical posts on the OH can't be extrapolated to mean whatever you're implying they mean.

I don't think you could have said it better. Markakis got blasted on this board last season (not completely unwarranted) and anyone that says different is delusional.

[Baldimore, hon]

Why does every thing have to involve race with some people?

Way to pick out the least important part of what I said to comment on.

But, if you must know, everything has to involve race for some people because they are forced to live their lives where they are constantly reminded of what their race is and how it is different. Being white means not having to think about race. When you are black, you don't have that luxury. And race and racism are still large issues even though most white people would like to think they aren't. The fact that there were racial slurs being thrown about when Cheerios had a commercial with an interracial couple in it is just an example of how laughably NOT far we have come on the issue.

Maybe race has nothing to do with how you feel about Jones. And if so, great. But, just know that it matters to more people than you think. And for some people (the ones I was referring to in my statement), they don't ever think it matters to them, but without them consciously thinking about it they might judge AJ differently because he's black. And if they even realized that they might be embarrassed. But, it still happens anyway. Because they just don't realize it.

[oriolesacox]

This is an absolute no win discussion. I love Adam and I'm sure I can speak for the majority of the board and say they feel the same way.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[refjaf55]

btw, just 2 more hits for Jones to have 1000 hits in his career. Not that big of a deal but I just wanted to throw that out there.

[Moshagge3]

I think it's naive to say that race has nothing to do with how a player is perceived. These posts from the late, lamented Fire Joe Morgan blog are pretty perceptive, I think. But this is a discussion board, we're several times more neurotic than the average fan, and we're going to disproportionately talk about players' flaws. When Jones flails at a slider in the dirt on a 3-2 pitch, we're gonna complain. When Markakis gets a fastball middle in and he can't turn on it like he used to, we're gonna complain. When Hardy pops up the first pitch, when Hunter gives up a home run to a lefty, when Cruz looks like a circus clown in left field, we're gonna complain. But we love these guys. (Maybe not Jimenez, yet.) Personally speaking, the 2012-present Orioles are my favorite team since the 1992-1993 team. Even the playoff teams of 1996-1997 felt mercenary and their achievements were kind of hollow. These are the good old days and Adam Jones is probably the best part of it.

[Anonsnides]

Way to pick out the least important part of what I said to comment on.

But, if you must know, everything has to involve race for some people because they are forced to live their lives where they are constantly reminded of what their race is and how it is different. Being white means not having to think about race. When you are black, you don't have that luxury. And race and racism are still large issues even though most white people would like to think they aren't. The fact that there were racial slurs being thrown about when Cheerios had a commercial with an interracial couple in it is just an example of how laughably NOT far we have come on the issue.

Maybe race has nothing to do with how you feel about Jones. And if so, great. But, just know that it matters to more people than you think. And for some people (the ones I was referring to in my statement), they don't ever think it matters to them, but without them consciously thinking about it they might judge AJ differently because he's black. And if they even realized that they might be embarrassed. But, it still happens anyway. Because they just don't realize it.

You're absolutely right, I did focus mainly on that, it was just something that I thought was kind of a strange thing to say kind of off-handedly in your post.

To be honest I agree with most of what you said in your original post and think you are right on the money, I just took issue with your introductory sentence, so much so that I felt the need to respond to it (albeit I'll admit it wasnt a very constructive comment).

About the issue of race playing a factor: I will certainly agree that racism does still exist in this country; people are still discriminated against in many regards from day to day for the color of their skin, their religious beliefs (or lack their of just so I'm covering all the bases here) gender etc.

However I maintain that we have made great strides and are progressing as a society and for the vast majority of people (including those who peruse these parts) I dont believe that racism is as prevalent as you make it seem.

Anyways that's longer than I had hoped to write at 1:15am and I'm fading fast so I'm calling it quits.

[MrOrange82]

Speaking as someone whose favorite player is Markakis, I can tell you it has nothing to do with race. My two favorite all-time Orioles are Frank Robinson and Eddie Murray.

As to Jones, I couldn't care less about bubble blowing or his public persona. His tendency to swing at pitches in the dirt drives me nuts because it seems like it should be something that happens less as he gains experience, yet he simply hasn't made much progress on that front. I was listening to last night's game in my car, Jones got to a two-strike count, and Joe Angel actually said on the air, "I sense a slider in the dirt is coming." And it did, and Jones swung at it and missed. When the friggin' announcer knows it's coming, you have to think the player knows it's coming, or should. Jones seems willing to trade 10 strikeouts on terrible pitches to avoid the 10% chance that he'll be caught looking at strike three -- something that happened to him all of six times in all of 2013. It's a bad tradeoff and the pitchers know it.

That said, I still like Jones a lot. He's a deserving all-star, and a team leader. He has one flaw that really bugs me, is all. My wife has some flaws that really bug me, too (but I don't tell her that).

As to Markakis, he's my favorite for two reasons. One, I just like his approach at the plate, and I've liked it from literally his first at bat in the majors. Second, he's a home grown player who came along at the exact moment that I needed someone to latch onto -- the aftermath of the whole 2005 debacle. If Jones had been in the Orioles system for a couple of years and had joined the club in the spring of 2006, he'd probably be my favorite. But he wasn't, so he isn't, even though I'd readily admit he is the better overall baseball player.

AJ is vastly superior to Markakis in almost every aspect of the game. IMO, AJ gets more grief because many of us believe that he could be even better "if only he didn't..." Well, as you said, he's got his flaws, and maybe he is what he is. But he's far and away the best player on the Orioles until Davis' power comes back and/or a healthy Machado returns to the lineup.

Markakis, on the other hand, is just...persistently disappointing. Steady, for the most part, but entirely unspectacular...and, unlike with AJ, I think most of us have given up on Markakis raising his ceiling.