New to the forum, and a question

[MemorialStadKid]

What am I missing here? Is it a racial thing? I don't get it.

A few years ago I wrote a very long piece about the perception of Black athletes in U.S. society and how the reactions are different to the alleged transgressions of Black athletes vs. White athletes. I wrote it because I did detect a weird kind of over-reaction to anything Adam Jones did or said.

Here it is: http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/98349-Adam-Jones-race-and-misrepresentations?highlight=Adam

Some people agreed with me and some said my conclusions were wrong and I was trying to create a racist mood on the OH. In that piece I quoted a couple of articles that discussed how we're all neuro-linguistically programmed to use certain code words and associate various negative attributes with Black people.

This doesn't mean everyone is "racist" - it means that our collective media culture puts out certain images repeatedly and we will often subconsciously make stereotypical associations with said images. For example: seeing a brown-skinned man in a turban post-9/11 will trigger subconscious associations based on stereotypes. It doesn't make you "evil" but we're living in a culture of Islamophobia and we've been hit with images of brown guys in turbans blowing stuff up on the movies and TV for decades.

Now, with Adam Jones, I do feel that SOME of the criticism is based on performance alone. I don't like how he swings at balls 10 inches off the plate, but then I've seen some critiques of the man that are way over the top. Jones is developing into the kind of player we've wanted for years: a grinder who has fire in his belly about being an Oriole and is willing to take a stand about the team being winners. He's helped to change the passive culture of the O's locker room from the days when it was B-Rob and Markakis putting their heads down after the numerous losses.

There are some posters (a VERY small percentage) who've made some comments I've not liked but you cannot prove "racism" on a message board. However, I will say that I find that some folks do have a very strong anti-Black/African-American bias and it shows in the things they say.

Also, if you find yourself getting defensive whenever anyone mentions the topic of race or ethnic relations in sports, you might want to take a long hard look in the mirror.

MSK

[Flash- bd]

That's a good analysis above by LookinUp.

I have to say this is a tiresome debate to me. Look, of course race has something to do with it. But that's not the question. Much smaller cues than the color of someone's skin--which of course is something rather obvious to our perception--inform our opinions/decisions, so of course a historically-loaded factor like race plays a part...ffs, we do studies on things as negligible as does the placement of paper clips on a desk inform the perception of one's boss, lol. Talking about historically loaded factors for baseball fans (which is of course the population we're interested in here.... ), left-handedness is pretty high up on the list, is it not? "Traditional" (ish?) good looks like Markakis' won't be far behind...Point I'm trying to make is, it's pointless to deny that the color of someone's skin affects us on some level, no matter how negligible, just as it would be pointless to deny that the way a player wears his uniform does. If you want to "play the race card", your job isn't to convince us that "hey guys, racism exists and affects our perceptions", it's to convince us that "hey guys, this is why racism is a bigger factor in Orioles Hangout fans' judgment of Adam Jones' than other relevant factors". And frankly, I think you'd have your work cut out for you. LookinUp's interpretation is pretty damn convincing for me. (Another point to add to LookinUp's post: Markakis walked 3 times in his first game. Markakis, as it turned out, was never the greek god of walks, never had near to Brian Giles' level of OBP skills, yet how much would you bet that those 3 walks in his debut was relevant in the fact that we still saw him in these terms even when his BA-OBP difference hovered around .60-.70 most years?)

[El Gordo]

Nick was a rare home grown prospect that came into his own during the dark years. AJ was someone else's prospect and it took time for folks to buy into him. Nick exploded early while AJ has gradually improved until now he is the stronger player. Also Nick is too young to be in decline unless there is some other explanation, so people will give him a mulligan, and keep hoping he turns things around.

[MrOrange82]

Actually, how I remember it is he had some red flag comps. Of course the folks here on the board discounted them (including myself).

Yeah, looking back, I'm not sure why "Jack Skellington" and "The Monopoly Guy" didn't set off louder warning bells.

[Morgan423]

I'd like to think that most of us on the OH have positive intent with our criticism. It's mainly out of frustration and a desire to see our players succeed. Like with AJ... extremely talented with and he helps the Orioles in so many ways. We want him to do his best and succeed, which is why it is frustrating to see other teams exploit ones of his few continuous Achilles heels, pitch recognition and approach. But we're behind him 100%. Hopefully I'm making sense and not just babbling incoherently. :oD

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

[SerenityNow]

Also, if you find yourself getting defensive whenever anyone mentions the topic of race or ethnic relations in sports, you might want to take a long hard look in the mirror.

MSK

If that is the case you must spend a fair amount of time looking in the mirror.

[Tony-OH]

That's all true, and I hope the poster stays away from the game threads. That's where many of us are upset if Adam isn't hitting .1000 with RISP.

Some people take the game threads too seriously. Emotional responses are acceptable there and should not be held against people.

[MemorialStadKid]

If that is the case you must spend a fair amount of time looking in the mirror.

Taking a look under the bridge. Hmn.

Nice way to sidestep the issue while keeping the snark alive.

MSK

[Frobby]

I blame Nick Markakis for the OP...seriously. Let me explain.

Nick skyrocketed up the rankings in terms of valuable young players. His historical comps must have been amazing. He did all of the things that baseball nerds liked at a very young age. He played a good outfield. He had a rocket arm. He took pitches. He walked. He hit a lot of doubles and he hit enough HRs to pass from a power perspective. The advanced stat nerds (I mean that affectionately) fell in love. Fans like Frobby jumped on his bandwagon, and for good reason.

Then Nick got paid and has more or less been an average or below average player since, yet many on this board and around our fan base still credit him for playing the game the right way, or some other meaningless description. The truth is that last year Markakis was terrible, and the years before that he wasn't very good, but fans dies hard.

Nick was very good in 2012. You could argue it was the second best year of his entire career, except that he missed 58 games due to broken bones. 2009-10 were disappointing compared to 2007-08, but I'd still describe him as pretty good in those seasons. 2011 was his second-worst year, and he may have been playing hurt for a good bit of that season. (He had abdominal surgery after the season.) 2013 was awful and hopefully won't be repeated.

[AdamK]

Hey everyone, I'm just curious. It seems like some people in this town and on this forum refuse to give Adam Jones any credit. Here's a guy who's won 3 Gold Gloves as a center fielder, hits for power drives in runs, has really become involved with the community, and is the clubhouse leader. Yet some people keep whining about him. He chases too many pitches, he blows bubbles in center field, he talks too much trash, etc.

Meanwhile Markakis is in right field stealing the teams money. He hits about .280-.285, below average power, basically just draws a bunch of walks and hits mostly bases empty doubles. IMHO he doesn't provide nearly enough offense for his position or his salary. But he gets a free pass from everyone, including the local media. I remember Jim Palmer comparing Markakis to George Brett. Are you serious? On his best day Markakis isn't half the player Brett was. But the fans here love him, he doesn't get half the flak Jones does, even though Jones is a helluva lot better player.

What am I missing here? ... I don't get it.

Nice try, Adam Jones.

Just kidding. Go Os.

[Olson30]

In general white people are the not people who continue to bring up race all the time.

Maybe if blacks & other groups stop bringing it up things will get better. Hell we re-elected a black President yet the complaints continue & are getting worse.

The Cheerios commercial issue was started by a liberal MSNBC host who I believe was black.

I seriously doubt the criticisms of Adam Jones have anything to due with his race and are more about how he carries himself. But go ahead and believe it's white people who dislike him because of his skin color.

[Guest rochester]

Also, if you find yourself getting defensive whenever anyone mentions the topic of race or ethnic relations in sports, you might want to take a long hard look in the mirror.

MSK

MSK - I usually sit back and read when you write provocative posts and say nothing but can not remain silent on this, unless I am completely missing the point of the above statement. Are you saying that if someone complains about the use of racism in every instance of criticism against someone of another race, religion, sex, preference, etc. that they should look in the mirror?

[El Gordo]

Racial? Oh good grief. Fans like me like AJ just fine and really cheer for him but I

don't care for some of his antics. Does that make me a racist now? Oh hell. If that is what you believe then you are way the hell off base. Geez

I wonder if he were white you would use the word antics to describe his behavior.

[El Gordo]

MSK - I usually sit back and read when you write provocative posts and say nothing but can not remain silent on this, unless I am completely missing the point of the above statement. Are you saying that if someone complains about the use of racism in every instance of criticism against someone of another race, religion, sex, preference, etc. that they should look in the mirror?

I grew up in Jim Crow BAL. The average middle class sensibility was not only racist, but anti-Semitic, homophobic, and misogynistic. By the time I was 6 I had been steeped in this. It has taken me a life time to come to recognize the predispositions in me for these prejudices, and to try to be vigilant against them. I dare not stop looking in the mirror. But maybe things are different for younger generations.

[El Gordo]

This is an easy one. Would you use that word for Bryce Harper or Brett Lawrie or Brian Wilson? I definitely would.

No, I would use jerk. Antics at least, are associated with amusement.