Notre Dame Football 2014

[Number5]

The flaw in your argument is, the DB engages first. How can you "ward off" a block when you initiated it? If the ND player had grabbed the DB first, then I wouldn't even try to make an argument out of it. But the fact of the matter is, the DB grabbed the receiver and didn't let him go until it was far too late. Again if the DB knew it was a foul, why not try to disengage & put his hands up or go around him? He didn't try, its a 2 way street.

Also, I never said I agreed with the person in the youtube video I linked. I linked it because it was the first one I found that was zoomed in. I don't agree with the guy, he's being a bit zealous and dramatic. It shouldn't be a defensive holding if you don't call both & Hirbstreet shouldn't be fired.

This is not a flaw. If the defender was required to wait until he is blocked before he could attempt to use his hands to ward off the block, we would have a lot more scoring, for sure. Defensive players legally use their hands on every football play. They really do. On this play, the defender was attempting to go left toward the play and throw the blocker to his right. The blocker made every effort to stay engaged in his block and made no effort to run a pass pattern. It was a pick play. If you see it differently, I don't know what else I can say. I'm very confident that most officials would see it the same way I do.

[incubus]

This is not a flaw. If the defender was required to wait until he is blocked before he could attempt to use his hands to ward off the block, we would have a lot more scoring, for sure. Defensive players legally use their hands on every football play. They really do. On this play, the defender was attempting to go left toward the play and throw the blocker to his right. The blocker made every effort to stay engaged in his block and made no effort to run a pass pattern. It was a pick play. If you see it differently, I don't know what else I can say. I'm very confident that most officials would see it the same way I do.

My point is, the DB isn't warding off something he initiated, he clearly grabbed first. If you are really trying to get to the play then get to it, don't grab the reciever. To me, all this does is show intent, he grabbed the receiver's arms (preventing any possibility of him receiving the ball) & didn't let go until after the ball was almost in Robinson's hands.

[incubus]

Also, this video has a great view of the action and shows that the nearest Ref to the play and the only one with a clear view of the entire play signaled a touchdown. It also shows that the ref who threw the flag, threw it before the reciever (Robinson) was even out of the neutral zone (he threw it prematurely.)

http://youtu.be/OAKIi6gONFA

[Number5]

My point is, the DB isn't warding off something he initiated, he clearly grabbed first. If you are really trying to get to the play then get to it, don't grab the reciever. To me, all this does is show intent, he grabbed the receiver's arms (preventing any possibility of him receiving the ball) & didn't let go until after the ball was almost in Robinson's hands.

Again, your point about whose hands touched the other player first is irrelevant. Defensive players use their hands to ward off blockers on every play at all levels of football. They will nearly always get their hands on the blocker prior to being blocked. That is their objective, and is completely legal.

This play was a classic example of a pick play and was correctly called as offensive pass interference, IMO. Notre Dame could have avoided the penalty one of two ways. They could have had the receiver remain behind the line of scrimmage to catch the ball. The blocking would have then been legal. Or they could have had the blocking receiver make an effort to appear to be running a pass pattern. Since neither happened, it was correctly flagged as offensive pass interference. The rule is clear on these points.

It seems clear to me that you are unwilling to believe me, and that is OK. I really cannot say any other words that will convince you. Suffice it to say that I would have called it the same way the officials on the field did, and I am confident that most officials would do the same. It seems to be a very clear-cut call to me, but if you see it differently, I obviously am not going to change your mind.

[Number5]

Signalling a touchdown, or spotting the ball and the end of a run does not mean there is no foul. The result of the play must be signaled by the officials. The penalty is then discussed, and the team that is not guilty of the foul has the option of taking the result of the play, or assessing the penalty. The touchdown was signaled because the pass receiver crossed the goal line with the ball, and is always signaled whether there is a penalty on the play or not, unless it was a pre-snap dead ball foul.

[Number5]

You need to also understand that each official has different assignments and responsibilities. The linesman is primarily responsible for spotting the ball and fouls involving the line of scrimmage. False start, off-sides, ineligible receiver downfield, illegal forward pass, etc. The back judge has responsibility on offensive and defensive pass interference, and he made the call. Now, had the receiver not crossed the line of scrimmage prior to catching the pass and the flag had been thrown because of the clear-out block, the linesman would have gone to the back judge and advised him that the pass was completed behind the line of scrimmage, and the flag would have been picked up. As fans, we watch the ball, but officials must all take care of their individual responsibilities, otherwise a lot more calls would be missed. The officials on this play employed the proper mechanics.

[incubus]

Again, your point about whose hands touched the other player first is irrelevant. Defensive players use their hands to ward off blockers on every play at all levels of football. They will nearly always get their hands on the blocker prior to being blocked. That is their objective, and is completely legal.

This play was a classic example of a pick play and was correctly called as offensive pass interference, IMO. Notre Dame could have avoided the penalty one of two ways. They could have had the receiver remain behind the line of scrimmage to catch the ball. The blocking would have then been legal. Or they could have had the blocking receiver make an effort to appear to be running a pass pattern. Since neither happened, it was correctly flagged as offensive pass interference. The rule is clear on these points.

It seems clear to me that you are unwilling to believe me, and that is OK. I really cannot say any other words that will convince you. Suffice it to say that I would have called it the same way the officials on the field did, and I am confident that most officials would do the same. It seems to be a very clear-cut call to me, but if you see it differently, I obviously am not going to change your mind.

Its not irrelevant, if the ball had been thrown to the receiver who was called for the OPI, he wouldn't have been able to make a play on the ball because the DB was holding him by the arms. That could have been called a defensive pass interference. Also the last video I posted makes a good point. How is a ref that (because of his vantage point) has no idea where the receiver is in relation to the line of scrimmage supposed to properly call PI? The receiver was maybe 1 yard past the line of scrimmage when he caught the ball, but the flag had already been thrown at that point. The ref predicted a foul occurring or was going to find something to call regardless. He was not the right person to call that foul even if it was correct. Perspective was everything in that moment, and a HUGE play in a HUGE game should not be left up to someone who has a terrible POV. If the NCAA assigns him that role in the end zone, then they need to reconsider the assignment.

[Number5]

Its not irrelevant, if the ball had been thrown to the receiver who was called for the OPI, he wouldn't have been able to make a play on the ball because the DB was holding him by the arms. That could have been called a defensive pass interference. Also the last video I posted makes a good point. How is a ref that (because of his vantage point) has no idea where the receiver is in relation to the line of scrimmage supposed to properly call PI? The receiver was maybe 1 yard past the line of scrimmage when he caught the ball, but the flag had already been thrown at that point. The ref predicted a foul occurring or was going to find something to call regardless. He was not the right person to call that foul even if it was correct. Perspective was everything in that moment, and a HUGE play in a HUGE game should not be left up to someone who has a terrible POV. If the NCAA assigns him that role in the end zone, then they need to reconsider the assignment.

Yes, I am sorry, but it is, indeed, irrelevant. And, no, when an offensive receiver makes no effort to run a pass pattern and runs straight at a defender and blocks him, it is never called defensive pass interference. Had the quarterback unbelievably thrown the ball at his blocking receiver's back as he blocked the defender, offensive pass interference would have been correctly called in that case, as well.

In your several posts, you have pretty much run off the full gambit of invalid reasons people are trying to pull out to attempt to claim that the officials were wrong.

All of this has been explained in my previous posts. I get it. You wanted Notre Dame to win. So did I. This play had nothing to do with them losing, however, other than the fact that if Notre Dame had executed it properly, they would likely have scored on the play and won the game. As it is, they clearly committed offensive pass interference, and there was no other way to call the play within the rules.

As previously stated, had the receiver remained behind the line of scrimmage to catch the ball, the flag that the clear-out block brought about would have been picked up after a brief conference between the back judge and the linesman. The referee would have announced, "There is no foul for offensive pass interference on the play. The pass was completed behind the line of scrimmage and the blocking was legal. The result of the play: Touchdown." These types of announcements, while certainly not an every down occurrence, are not all that uncommon. Please make an effort to understand that pick plays are not an every down occurrence, either, and they, like some other plays, must sometimes involve a collaborative effort by the officials. A more common example would be on a tipped ball. The umpire signals the tipped ball, but the back judge may throw a flag for pass interference, having not seen the tip or the umpire's signal. He is watching his assigned players, not watching the ball from the quarterback's hand. Again, after a brief conference, the flag is picked up, and the penalty waived off. This is how it is supposed to work. It is certainly not "predicting a foul." The officials have separate responsibilities for a reason. If they all were looking at the same part of every play (following the ball like fans) there would be many, many more missed calls. Expecting one official to see down-field blocking and read how it occurs, while at the same time also judging whether a different receiver is ahead of or behind the line of scrimmage at the time he caught the ball, is beyond impractical. It is for this reason that the officials all have their own assignments and responsibilities.

The officials on this play all followed proper mechanics, and they got the call correct. Fortunately, the NCAA understands this, and they will undoubtedly continue to make their assignments on these merits, rather than respond to irate fans who understand neither the rules nor the proper mechanics that officials are trained to follow.

I had no intention of responding to any more of your posts, but I could not allow your baseless insinuation that the officials were dishonest and were trying to manufacture a foul against Notre Dame on the play any way they could stand without comment. It is one thing to not understand the rules and mechanics involved. It is quite another to make such allegations.

[mrbig1]

I have never seen a flag on a play like that in my life. I mean pro or college. I hate to see a big game end on a BS call like that. I'm talking about a national title was on the line. Just total BS.

[incubus]

Yes, I am sorry, but it is, indeed, irrelevant. And, no, when an offensive receiver makes no effort to run a pass pattern and runs straight at a defender and blocks him, it is never called defensive pass interference. Had the quarterback unbelievably thrown the ball at his blocking receiver's back as he blocked the defender, offensive pass interference would have been correctly called in that case, as well.

In your several posts, you have pretty much run off the full gambit of invalid reasons people are trying to pull out to attempt to claim that the officials were wrong.

All of this has been explained in my previous posts. I get it. You wanted Notre Dame to win. So did I. This play had nothing to do with them losing, however, other than the fact that if Notre Dame had executed it properly, they would likely have scored on the play and won the game. As it is, they clearly committed offensive pass interference, and there was no other way to call the play within the rules.

As previously stated, had the receiver remained behind the line of scrimmage to catch the ball, the flag that the clear-out block brought about would have been picked up after a brief conference between the back judge and the linesman. The referee would have announced, "There is no foul for offensive pass interference on the play. The pass was completed behind the line of scrimmage and the blocking was legal. The result of the play: Touchdown." These types of announcements, while certainly not an every down occurrence, are not all that uncommon. Please make an effort to understand that pick plays are not an every down occurrence, either, and they, like some other plays, must sometimes involve a collaborative effort by the officials. A more common example would be on a tipped ball. The umpire signals the tipped ball, but the back judge may throw a flag for pass interference, having not seen the tip or the umpire's signal. He is watching his assigned players, not watching the ball from the quarterback's hand. Again, after a brief conference, the flag is picked up, and the penalty waived off. This is how it is supposed to work. It is certainly not "predicting a foul." The officials have separate responsibilities for a reason. If they all were looking at the same part of every play (following the ball like fans) there would be many, many more missed calls. Expecting one official to see down-field blocking and read how it occurs, while at the same time also judging whether a different receiver is ahead of or behind the line of scrimmage at the time he caught the ball, is beyond impractical. It is for this reason that the officials all have their own assignments and responsibilities.

The officials on this play all followed proper mechanics, and they got the call correct. Fortunately, the NCAA understands this, and they will undoubtedly continue to make their assignments on these merits, rather than respond to irate fans who understand neither the rules nor the proper mechanics that officials are trained to follow.

I had no intention of responding to any more of your posts, but I could not allow your baseless insinuation that the officials were dishonest and were trying to manufacture a foul against Notre Dame on the play any way they could stand without comment. It is one thing to not understand the rules and mechanics involved. It is quite another to make such allegations.

Lets ignore the arguement of wether or not a foul occured. Watch the replay, the ref throws the flag before the receiver is ever past the line of scrimmage, you said yourself, the Offense cannot "block" once the play is past the line of scrimmage. The foul was called prematurely.

[Number5]

Lets ignore the arguement of wether or not a foul occured. Watch the replay, the ref throws the flag before the receiver is ever past the line of scrimmage, you said yourself, the Offense cannot "block" once the play is past the line of scrimmage. The foul was called prematurely.

Once more, the flag was thrown due to the take out block beyond the line of scrimmage by a receiver that was making no effort whatsoever to make it look like he was running a pass pattern. This is commonly referred to as a "pick play" and is a text book example of offensive pass interference.

The flag was correctly thrown by the back judge, who has that responsibility. The linesman determines whether or not the pass receiver caught the ball beyond the line of scrimmage. The back judge cannot make that determination, as he is in the defensive backfield, not along the line of scrimmage. This is the proper mechanic and the officials did everything right. Had the pass receiver caught the ball behind the line of scrimmage, the linesman would have briefly conferred with the back judge, and the flag would have been picked up. This, again, is absolutely the proper mechanic. This type of collaborative effort by the officials is precisely why you occasionally see flags thrown, but picked up, with no penalty called and assessed. It is not because officials change their mind about what they saw, it is usually because of another official advises them of another part of the play that renders the play legal. In this case, the call was correct, both as to the rule and as to the mechanics.

I realize that the average fan is unaware that each official has separate assignments and responsibilities, but they do. If they didn't, many more calls would be missed. The officials don't just follow the ball as we fans often do. There are no other words I can use to explain this. I was simply trying to help. If you aren't interested in the rule or officials mechanics involved, that is OK. Please feel free to believe whatever you want as to this particular play.

[Il BuonO]

Once more, the flag was thrown due to the take out block beyond the line of scrimmage by a receiver that was making no effort whatsoever to make it look like he was running a pass pattern. This is commonly referred to as a "pick play" and is a text book example of offensive pass interference.

The flag was correctly thrown by the back judge, who has that responsibility. The linesman determines whether or not the pass receiver caught the ball beyond the line of scrimmage. The back judge cannot make that determination, as he is in the defensive backfield, not along the line of scrimmage. This is the proper mechanic and the officials did everything right. Had the pass receiver caught the ball behind the line of scrimmage, the linesman would have briefly conferred with the back judge, and the flag would have been picked up. This, again, is absolutely the proper mechanic. This type of collaborative effort by the officials is precisely why you occasionally see flags thrown, but picked up, with no penalty called and assessed. It is not because officials change their mind about what they saw, it is usually because of another official advises them of another part of the play that renders the play legal. In this case, the call was correct, both as to the rule and as to the mechanics.

I realize that the average fan is unaware that each official has separate assignments and responsibilities, but they do. If they didn't, many more calls would be missed. The officials don't just follow the ball as we fans often do. There are no other words I can use to explain this. I was simply trying to help. If you aren't interested in the rule or officials mechanics involved, that is OK. Please feel free to believe whatever you want as to this particular play.

Man, I'm sick to death of reading your dogmatic explanation. You've been saying the same thing over and over now. Whomever was responsible for the call made the wrong one. The ND receiver never made any action to block the FSU defender, he was trying to get off the line of scrimmage and was engaged by the defender.

There is no pick play if he isn't making a block and he wasn't. I don't accept your premise and you're not the final authority. The refs are and they made the call but in many people's opinions they blew it.

When you use phrases like "the average fan" it makes seem more than a little condescending. If you are some kind of an authority I would think you'd list your qualifications so everyone knows just how knowledgeable a person it is they're dealing with. I'm sure then there'd really be no point in arguing.

[Number5]

Man, I'm sick to death of reading your dogmatic explanation. You've been saying the same thing over and over now. Whomever was responsible for the call made the wrong one. The ND receiver never made any action to block the FSU defender, he was trying to get off the line of scrimmage and was engaged by the defender.

There is no pick play if he isn't making a block and he wasn't. I don't accept your premise and you're not the final authority. The refs are and they made the call but in many people's opinions they blew it.

When you use phrases like "the average fan" it makes seem more than a little condescending. If you are some kind of an authority I would think you'd list your qualifications so everyone knows just how knowledgeable a person it is they're dealing with. I'm sure then there'd really be no point in arguing.

I was responding directly to his comment which made it very clear to me that my earlier explanation had failed to clarify to him that the back judge has the responsibility to call the offensive pass interference on the block, but the linesman has the responsibility on the determination of whether the pass was completed beyond or behind the line of scrimmage. I agree with you that I thought I had covered that well enough, but his comment made it evident that I had not.

That the man doing the blocking made no effort to make the appearance of running a pass route seemed obvious to me. If you saw it differently, fine. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. You are absolutely correct that the game officials have the responsibility to make the call and all we can do is talk about it. I would have called it as the game officials did, and the officials I have worked games with since that game have all said they would have made the same call, as well.

I was sharing my limited knowledge as a high school federation official. I do not officiate NCAA games, and make no claim to be an expert. If you disagree with what I have said, that is OK with me. The ruling on the field has obviously upset you. I apologize if I have somehow made you even angrier than you already were. My intent was quite the opposite.

If you are interested, here is a link to the official CFO interpretation of the play (go to 8:38 on the video for this particular play):

t=8m38s

Also, here is a discussion from an officials blog regarding the play. Commenters are near-unanimous in agreeing with the call. There is one commenter who disagrees, though his first two reasons seem odd to me, since they clearly disagree with what we are taught in classes and clinics. His third point is valid, however, IMO. I had not seen the play run far enough to see one of the defenders remove his helmet. Had this foul been called, there would still be no touchdown, but the offsetting penalties would have resulted in replaying the down at the two-and-a-half, rather than penalizing the yardage. Notre Dame, it seems to me, has a legitimate beef about that, and should have had a less difficult chance on the ensuing replay of fourth down.

http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=11358.0

[Number5]

I'm not sure why I can't post the image of the helmet removal, but here is a link:

http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/-RSZIYR-UsVi4JVrZYKLke35Ggo=/800x0/filters:no_upscale%28%29/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2370098/flag3.0.jpg

[Il BuonO]

I've read from the officials blog and just see different opinions. The one thing I do agree with there is why wasn't the same play flagged earlier in the game? I'm not a supporter of Kelly but I think he has a legitimate gripe here. If, as a coach I think the game is being called one way then I'd be upset at the call especially at that point in the game.

Notre Dame has had their share of calls in the past. In the end, I've seen them play enough to know they don't have the best team in the country this year. It was just disappointing to see the FSU game end that way.