We need 3 catchers on this roster

[Aristotelian]

And I don't think we lost as many games because of his ineffectiveness against left handers than we have by piddling around with hope and prayer guys. I really don't.

He IS a hope and prayer guy, particularly against lefties. I do think we are in need of a righty bat. Pearce for Snider would be the logical move but who knows how long that oblique will take.

Paredes was on a tear May-June. He has been bad in July even after shifting mostly to a platoon role. I sure hope those July numbers are the aberration, but it is possible that he has been figured out.

I agree that you don't want to gear everything toward LHPs when you are not going to see that many, but Snider is serving no useful purpose right now, so I would like to replace him with an option that hits RH. We are going to play some big games against Buerhle, Price, Sabathia, Moore, EdRod, etc.

[Redskins Rick]

He IS a hope and prayer guy, particularly against lefties. I do think we are in need of a righty bat. Pearce for Snider would be the logical move but who knows how long that oblique will take.

Paredes was on a tear May-June. He has been bad in July even after shifting mostly to a platoon role. I sure hope those July numbers are the aberration, but it is possible that he has been figured out.

I agree that you don't want to gear everything toward LHPs when you are not going to see that many, but Snider is serving no useful purpose right now, so I would like to replace him with an option that hits RH. We are going to play some big games against Buerhle, Price, Sabathia, Moore, EdRod, etc.

Heart agrees with you, but the brain says that May-June was a just a career month for him, pitchers have him figured out, and he needs to make the counter-adjustments.

[Aglets]

You don't think he and Manny are outperforming their career averages?

Are you seriously comparing Jimmy Paredes and Manny Machado? Manny is one of the most talented baseball players in all of MLB.

At any rate, this ignores the fact that Manny is maintaining his career year while Paredes is crashing back to his normal numbers.

[gmelson26]

Against lefties, if someone happens to Joseph behind the plate, you move Davis, Pearce or Flaherty to 1B and Wieters to the plate. Against the majority of starters, this isn't necessary; Paredes is fine against righties. No need to bring up Clev until September.

[gmelson26]

Heart agrees with you, but the brain says that May-June was a just a career month for him, pitchers have him figured out, and he needs to make the counter-adjustments.

I'd say his earlier records in April, May, and June have earned him at least a few more weeks or so against righties to figure it out. By that point if he hasn't, it will be September and there will be plenty of people to help cover him.

[Aglets]

Against lefties, if someone happens to Joseph behind the plate, you move Davis, Pearce or Flaherty to 1B and Wieters to the plate. Against the majority of starters, this isn't necessary; Paredes is fine against righties. No need to bring up Clev until September.

Here is my primary concern:

What do we do for 1B against RHP which is admittedly, most of the games? I agree Paredes is fine for DH for now. Ryan Flaherty is not an acceptable answer in my opinion. Reimold is getting killed by RHP.

Davis can't play RF and 1B. Do you agree with my premise about playing Wieters and Joseph together more, like they did on Saturday? They are clearly our best hitters at the moment imo for those spots.

[Tx Oriole]

This is where the loss of Steve Pearce hurts us. If he was just healthy, the Orioles could just do a straight platoon with him and Paredes and give Reimold most of the starts in left field. With Pearce out, they'll have to give Snider more playing time or keep Paredes in there against left handed pitching. And I really don't like any of our bats in the minors. They either can't draw a walk to save their lives or have shown no power or can't hit for average at all. There's no optimal solution available right now.

LF should be Parra.

[Three Run Homer]

If Pearce is going to be out for more than another week, I'm fine with DFAing Travis Snider and calling up Clevenger to take some at bats at 1B and DH and to be a third catcher. Pearce should be getting most of the playing time at 1B once he returns.

Agree that Paredes is a liability against LHP, but he hits righties well enough that I would keep him around.

[Aristotelian]

If Pearce is going to be out for more than another week, I'm fine with DFAing Travis Snider and calling up Clevenger to take some at bats at 1B and DH and to be a third catcher. Pearce should be getting most of the playing time at 1B once he returns.

Agree that Paredes is a liability against LHP, but he hits righties well enough that I would keep him around.

I agree with keeping Paredes for now, but that would argue for a righty bat to replace Snider.

[DrungoHazewood]

Any longtime Hangouters remember the 2006 season here when we had Javy Lopez, Ramon Hernandez, and Raul Chavez on the roster a the same time? Or, more specifically, remember all the boardwide anger and outrage over the roster inefficiency.

I was in the middle of that. And it was ridiculous. The Orioles were carrying Chavez (lifetime OPS of .570) just in case they DH'd Lopez, Hernandez got hurt, and there was no other catcher on the roster. Of course they could have moved Lopez from DH to catcher, losing the DH for a few innings, and then calling up a catcher from the minors right after the game. But Sam Perlozzo seemed to think that option was so offensive that it warranted devoting 1/25th of the roster to a 3rd no-hit catcher, and placing him in the spot where the fire extinguisher normally sat behind a piece of glass labeled "in case of emergency..."

[Number5]

I was in the middle of that. And it was ridiculous. The Orioles were carrying Chavez (lifetime OPS of .570) just in case they DH'd Lopez, Hernandez got hurt, and there was no other catcher on the roster. Of course they could have moved Lopez from DH to catcher, losing the DH for a few innings, and then calling up a catcher from the minors right after the game. But Sam Perlozzo seemed to think that option was so offensive that it warranted devoting 1/25th of the roster to a 3rd no-hit catcher, and placing him in the spot where the fire extinguisher normally sat behind a piece of glass labeled "in case of emergency..."

Yeah, way back when most teams carried 9 or 10 pitchers, carrying a third catcher made some sense. With 12 pitchers and a DH, leaving a total of 4 on the bench each day, not so much. Hard to pinch-run and/or match up pinch-hitters and defensive replacements with only 2 non-catchers on the bench.

[Aglets]

Yeah, way back when most teams carried 9 or 10 pitchers, carrying a third catcher made some sense. With 12 pitchers and a DH, leaving a total of 4 on the bench each day, not so much. Hard to pinch-run and/or match up pinch-hitters and defensive replacements with only 2 non-catchers on the bench.

All very true, and thanks to Drungo for the trip down memory lane.

To the point of this thread though, we have potentially 3 good hitting catchers that we could really use right now on our 25 man! All hitting better than a good portion of some outfielders already on the roster. Yea, it's unconventional, but we should try to get the best 9 hitters that we can in the lineup each day.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yeah, way back when most teams carried 9 or 10 pitchers, carrying a third catcher made some sense. With 12 pitchers and a DH, leaving a total of 4 on the bench each day, not so much. Hard to pinch-run and/or match up pinch-hitters and defensive replacements with only 2 non-catchers on the bench.

There was a time in the long-ago past where the 25-man roster wasn't any kind of real limitation. In the 20s and 30s various teams carried Moe Berg to basically be a bullpen catcher and tell tall tales and wild exaggerations of his exploits. There were multiple years where he appeared in about 30 games and had fewer than 100 PAs despite being on the roster the whole season. I think some teams didn't even always carry 25 men, just to save cash. Platooning has waxed and waned over time, so there were periods where substitutes were mostly pinch hitters for the pitcher. In the 1800s there weren't any set roster limits but teams often carried as few as 13 or 14 players. But in my lifetime I can't recall many teams carrying 3 catchers. Certainly by 2006, with big bullpens and nearby AAA teams, it was silly.

[DrungoHazewood]

All very true, and thanks to Drungo for the trip down memory lane.

To the point of this thread though, we have potentially 3 good hitting catchers that we could really use right now on our 25 man! All hitting better than a good portion of some outfielders already on the roster. Yea, it's unconventional, but we should try to get the best 9 hitters that we can in the lineup each day.

I think the elephant in the room here is the assumption that Steve Clevenger is a very good hitter of major league pitching. His AAA OPS is currently .793, driven by a .322 batting average. It's hard for me to see him OPSing .750 in the majors (his career MLB OPS currently is .579). We're not in some perfectly efficient world, but it seems that if he was really a good MLB player he would have more than 352 PAs through the age of 29. Both the '12 Cubs and '14 Orioles gave him a few at bats and he was dreadful. Of course I was also the one who thought the circumstantial evidence surrounding Caleb Joseph was pretty harsh, too, so what do I know?

[Aglets]

I think the elephant in the room here is the assumption that Steve Clevenger is a very good hitter of major league pitching. His AAA OPS is currently .793, driven by a .322 batting average. It's hard for me to see him OPSing .750 in the majors (his career MLB OPS currently is .579). We're not in some perfectly efficient world, but it seems that if he was really a good MLB player he would have more than 352 PAs through the age of 29. Both the '12 Cubs and '14 Orioles gave him a few at bats and he was dreadful. Of course I was also the one who thought the circumstantial evidence surrounding Caleb Joseph was pretty harsh, too, so what do I know?

I'm perfectly ok with putting Wieters and Joseph in the lineup regularly against RHP because they've proven they can do it this year. They've proven to be better than Flaherty, Reimold, Snider, and a host of others that have been jettisoned already. We don't technically need Clevenger on the roster for this to work but it might give Buck more peace of mind if he's going to be playing these other two guys more regularly, which I think he should.