Why you are feeling so down about the Orioles

[oriolediehard]

On 4/13/2018 at 11:02 PM, Tony-OH said:

I'm thinking so as well. First off, you have to question any professional baseball person who thinks Chris Tillman is a major league pitcher. But I can go through a list of players Buck didn't like who left the Orioles and found success elsewhere. 

Plus, he clearly rather have "his guys" on the team then guys who actually have skill sets that help the team win. 

Buck has always had a time limit in an organization. There are reasons for that. Buck has done a lot for the organization, but let's face it, it's not working now. 

My question is why has the Yankees, Rangers and Diamondbacks given up on Buck after he had sucess with them?  Seem like he does great with a new team and then he loses it after.  Why do you all think why?

[atomic]

1 hour ago, OsEatAlEast said:

I'm late to the party and I haven't read the whole thread yet so bare with me. But my beef with the O's(and most teams in baseball) is that they are pretty much the opposite of the kind of baseball I like to watch.

I like fast contact hitters that play good defense. So baseball in general is pretty unappealing to me at the moment. I began to like baseball in the 80's and those of us that remember know it was a totally different game then. Most guys would walk about as much as they struck out back then. Now the good players usually strike out twice as much as they walk and the bad players being about three times as much with very few exceptions. I mean there are a lot of players that strike out 1 out of every three or four trips to the plate. That's pathetic as far as I'm concerned.

With the formula the O's use now. It feels like we are lucky when we win and feels like there is little hope when we lose. In most of the losses the opposing team looks like they are in cruise control with no real pressure on them. To the point, that brand of baseball just doesn't excite me.

 

I agree with that sentiment.  I can't stand seeing guys strike out so frequently.  And I would like guys who could steal bases and who can hit up the opposite field.   Pitchers who can pitch complete games and guys who can field their position.

When I was growing up guys like David Kingman were mocked and todays Orioles gave their version of Kingman  160 million dollars. 

[amdcpus]

14 minutes ago, atomic said:

I agree with that sentiment.  I can't stand seeing guys strike out so frequently.  And I would like guys who could steal bases and who can hit up the opposite field.   Pitchers who can pitch complete games and guys who can field their position.

When I was growing up guys like David Kingman were mocked and todays Orioles gave their version of Kingman  160 million dollars. 

Same here. Gentry's about the only one who fits the bill on this team. Great defense, solid OBP, good pinch running speed and gets stolen bases. Couldn't believe so many people wanted him DFAed early in the season. IMO he should be starting every game over Santander, he's superior to him in every way.

[Tony-OH]

11 hours ago, oriolediehard said:

My question is why has the Yankees, Rangers and Diamondbacks given up on Buck after he had sucess with them?  Seem like he does great with a new team and then he loses it after.  Why do you all think why?

Everything I've ever heard was that he wore out his welcome because of his desire to have more control then the manager normally has. He got that with the Orioles, especially once the Duquette/Toronto thing happened. Buck has a lot of say in how things are done throughout the organization and is very aware of how guys are doing in the minors. He has no problem picking up a phone and talking with a minor league manager or coach about a player.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm saying this is how involved Buck is with everything. Some of this is a good thing because Buck is a great baseball mind, but I think he allows his personal preferences to get in the way of good baseball decisions. I'm sure Buck would disagree, but everytime I hear about a bad decision that had Buck's fingerprints on it it's because of the loyalty factor that he holds so dear to his heart. 

This also affects his lineups. Davis is still in the middle of the order because he's a Buck guy. He should be batting 8th and getting benched fairly often, especially against lefties until the Orioles can do something with him like phantom DL him.

[Sessh]

Quote

Everything I've ever heard was that he wore out his welcome because of his desire to have more control then the manager normally has. He got that with the Orioles, especially once the Duquette/Toronto thing happened. Buck has a lot of say in how things are done throughout the organization and is very aware of how guys are doing in the minors. He has no problem picking up a phone and talking with a minor league manager or coach about a player.

Unfortunately, the "wearing out his welcome" stuff was already public knowledge before he came here. Buck refusing to fire his coaches in NY and all the stuff I read about Buck's time in Texas all coincides with this, but no one here wanted to even hear that. In fact, mocking and insults are what anyone got for daring to point this out in any way. He certainly got the control he wanted after DD/Toronto and it certainly explains why Buck took full advantage of the situation to try to get some of that power he desired as did Brady. Now here we are in 2018 and people are just now catching up to what should have been acknowledged when he first got here because now, it's happening and has been since 2015. The power struggle some of us sensed going on between Buck and the FO was real and obvious.

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm saying this is how involved Buck is with everything. Some of this is a good thing because Buck is a great baseball mind, but I think he allows his personal preferences to get in the way of good baseball decisions. I'm sure Buck would disagree, but everytime I hear about a bad decision that had Buck's fingerprints on it it's because of the loyalty factor that he holds so dear to his heart. 

I would say that it is a bad thing. Buck is obviously a smart baseball guy and it really shines through in his first few years in a new organization mostly because loyalties haven't been strongly established yet, but as time goes on, this changes and he starts getting in his own way which causes his decision making and the performance of his teams to start going in the wrong direction. The fact that his personal feelings get put ahead of doing what's best for the team effectively cancels out his baseball intelligence because he's no longer making sound baseball decisions. He manages with his feelings instead of with his baseball IQ. He should never be anywhere near a GM position and shouldn't be managing here after this season. Loyalty to the team should never take a back seat to personal feelings and biases and if it does, that manager becomes a bad manager.

It's time to move on. I have nothing personal against Buck, but the writing has been on the wall since he got here and it's taken this long to start to see that the public knowledge about him before he got here was entirely accurate. He should not be brought back next season and I wish him all the best wherever he goes, it just better not be here. We need a fresh start from top to bottom and a GM that is allowed to do what he wants.

 

[TouchemAll]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Everything I've ever heard was that he wore out his welcome because of his desire to have more control then the manager normally has. He got that with the Orioles, especially once the Duquette/Toronto thing happened. Buck has a lot of say in how things are done throughout the organization and is very aware of how guys are doing in the minors. He has no problem picking up a phone and talking with a minor league manager or coach about a player.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm saying this is how involved Buck is with everything. Some of this is a good thing because Buck is a great baseball mind, but I think he allows his personal preferences to get in the way of good baseball decisions. I'm sure Buck would disagree, but everytime I hear about a bad decision that had Buck's fingerprints on it it's because of the loyalty factor that he holds so dear to his heart. 

This also affects his lineups. Davis is still in the middle of the order because he's a Buck guy. He should be batting 8th and getting benched fairly often, especially against lefties until the Orioles can do something with him like phantom DL him.

I'm sure Buck would disagree, but every time I hear about a bad decision that had Buck's fingerprints on it it's because of the loyalty factor that he holds so dear to his heart. 

Nail meet hammer It will eventually be his undoing here too.  I love the guy as a bench coach he's one of the best, but this undying loyalty to players who are declining, but have done it before is a head banger. JMHO Tillman may be his worst example yet.

[Frobby]

15 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Unfortunately, the "wearing out his welcome" stuff was already public knowledge before he came here. Buck refusing to fire his coaches in NY and all the stuff I read about Buck's time in Texas all coincides with this, but no one here wanted to even hear that. In fact, mocking and insults are what anyone got for daring to point this out in any way. 

Most managers wear out their welcome sooner or later.     How many managers last more than 8 seasons with one team?    Very few.    So I don’t think of it as a “fault” of Buck’s that his shelf life here might be up.    Since Buck arrived, every single AL East manager has turned over at least once.    The Red Sox have had four, the Blue Jays three.   Buck is third in seniority among AL managers (Scioscia and Yost are ahead of him).

As to whether Buck’s time here should be up, I’d probably say yes if the team doesn’t contend this year.   But I’ll always appreciate his role in getting this organization out of the quicksand for a few years.   

[NewOrioleWork]

On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 11:59 PM, Tony-OH said:

I don't think people realize how bad that Toronto situation (2014-15 offseason) screwed up everything positive we had going. It caused Duquette to lose a lot of power and created the current situation. 

Think about it. We didn't resign Cruz who was a tremendous influence in the clubhouse, particularly with the Hispanic players, and we really didn't do much that offseason. From what i heard, part of it was the fact that Duquette had lost so much influence with Angelos because of his desire to take the Toronto job. Angelos, and from what I understand Buck, felt Duquette wasn't loyal. 

This hit a cord with me.

This is an organizational culture problem.

My current workplace, a large organization, has a similar mindset. It's an old school approach. They gave you a job, so you reward them by being "loyal" and staying long term. If they find out you're trying to escape, they blackball you and you lose influence. It's a very antiquated way of thinking and it causes huge generational conflicts (very few people under 40 stay in the same job for more than a few years). Now that I think about it, my job has other things in common with the O's, too. Slow decision making because of lots of layers of bureaucracy. Unwilling to be publically honest about and address obvious current flaws. Visible long term problems on the horizon that aren't being addressed.

I don't blame Duquette for looking for better professional opportunities, I blame the organizational culture which held his desire to advance his life against him.

[Tony-OH]

12 minutes ago, NewOrioleWork said:

This hit a cord with me.

This is an organizational culture problem.

My current workplace, a large organization, has a similar mindset. It's an old school approach. They gave you a job, so you reward them by being "loyal" and staying long term. If they find out you're trying to escape, they blackball you and you lose influence. It's a very antiquated way of thinking and it causes huge generational conflicts (very few people under 40 stay in the same job for more than a few years). Now that I think about it, my job has other things in common with the O's, too. Slow decision making because of lots of layers of bureaucracy. Unwilling to be publically honest about and address obvious current flaws. Visible long term problems on the horizon that aren't being addressed.

I don't blame Duquette for looking for better professional opportunities, I blame the organizational culture which held his desire to advance his life against him.

More soon, but from what I understand, the above IS the culture in the front office.

[Can_of_corn]

14 hours ago, oriolediehard said:

My question is why has the Yankees, Rangers and Diamondbacks given up on Buck after he had sucess with them?  Seem like he does great with a new team and then he loses it after.  Why do you all think why?

From what I remember hearing:

Yankees- He refused to fire a coach

Diamondbacks- Player rebellion, players went over Buck's head complaining about him being too intense.

Texas- He declared that the team couldn't compete as assembled and that a rebuild was needed.  (not sure if that was with the FO or Ownership, I think Ownership)

[Tony-OH]

4 minutes ago, birdwatcher55 said:

I wonder if that changes with John Angelos now apparently running the show?

Well the biggest question in all of this is who is the actual bottom line decision maker? Is it Lou Angelos? John Angelos? Still Peter Angelos? Or did Brady endear himself enough to get reigns? There is more intrigued to whats going on right now then an episode of Game of Thrones.

[Drifter]

I'm down on the O's because the strikeouts are continuing to mount, and too many players are being stranded on base. While that stuff happens, it's really hard to watch the whole team go from a 'slump' to a serious way of life for the O's. I don't know if it's the coach(es) are preaching to "remain with your strength" and not move runners over, or it's the players being selfish. Also, too many players are swinging for the fences with 2 strikes. Frustrated? YUP!

[25 Nuggets]

44 minutes ago, Drifter said:

I'm down on the O's because the strikeouts are continuing to mount, and too many players are being stranded on base. While that stuff happens, it's really hard to watch the whole team go from a 'slump' to a serious way of life for the O's. I don't know if it's the coach(es) are preaching to "remain with your strength" and not move runners over, or it's the players being selfish. Also, too many players are swinging for the fences with 2 strikes. Frustrated? YUP!

True - their offensive approach is hard to watch.

[Bird Dog]

10 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

True - their offensive approach is hard to watch.

Coolbaugh

[Teddy OBP]

1 hour ago, 25 Nuggets said:

True - their offensive approach is hard to watch.

What's infuriating is that it's not like the approach worked the last couple of years and they are just slumping...it's been a terrible approach that no one seems interested in changing. 

Is anyone sitting in the dugout thinking that it's going to click any day now? It defies any reasonable explanation.

What sucks worst is that the starting pitching has been way better than expected.  They've deserved better results.