Dan says "tear it completely down"

[Orioles0615]

The tear down need to include the development staff. It seems like the O's still can't develop pitchers and it would be nice if we had coaches teaching hitters patience at the plate form the high minors down to rookie ball

[wildbillhiccup]

3 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

Villar rates as above average at 2B. Schoop has been only average since 2014.

We're splitting hairs. They're both not good defensively. And really how Villar stacks up to Schoop is irrelevant because I wasn't suggesting we keep him. Simply delay trading him until the off season. 

[ISU94]

3 minutes ago, Brooks The Great said:

I've seen a lot of posters and Orioles fan exhibit a lack of understanding that Jonathan Schoop is not a great player.

.296 career OBP, 100 OPS+. By no metric whatsoever is he a great player. He's pretty much the definition of an average everyday player. He has pop for his position, but he's a hacker. And I think he's a good bet to get bigger, slower, and more injury-prone than he already is. And ultimately, most other teams know these things about him. 

We got a good return, and I am ecstatic that a true rebuild is underway with the international market a focal point of it.

I love Schoop and wish he could've been here long term but you're right. The guy never walks, has defensive questions that will only continue to loom larger as he gets older, and is an FA after next year. We got a damn good return for what he is, but an even better one when you take into account his close to FA status.

3 minutes ago, andrewochs615 said:

The tear down need to include the development staff. It seems like the O's still can't develop pitchers and it would be nice if we had coaches teaching hitters patience at the plate form the high minors down to rookie ball

I would say our pitching development the last couple years has been pretty good in the minors. Haven't had a lot of upside to coach, but now we're seeing DL Hall make major strides, Akin pitch to his full capabilities, and some others turn into seriously promising guys ala Hanifee.

[ISU94]

2 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

We're splitting hairs. They're both not good defensively. And really how Villar stacks up to Schoop is irrelevant because I wasn't suggesting we keep him. Simply delay trading him until the off season. 

So if they're close when stacking them up together as how they rate as 2B we should have got more than a large upside SS and top pitxjing prospect when Schoop is an FA a year ahead of time as well?

Everyone has their opinion, rightfully so. But we've gotten rave reviews for our moves made yesterday by pretty much everyone. ESPECIALLY this one.

[ISU94]

13 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I mean, he was rumored to be in play (at one point) in the Machado talks and Schoop is under control for a longer period of time. Also, I (once again) point to return the Padres got for Brad Hand. You can't tell me a a position player isn't worth more, even if he's under control for less time. 

Brad Hand has more control then Schoop and was also with another very good RP for a team. Schoop is an FA after next season, has defensive questions, and doesn't walk...at all. He wasn't getting a top 15 prospect. Look at what @Luke-OH has said about close top prospects.

Also, Mejia is falling off due to defensive questions and becomes less valuable, especially than Hiura, if he can't catch long term 

11 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

...and if you're going to mention Villar lets call a spade a spade. He's had one good year in which is value was inflated due to his stolen bases. It's pretty clear that season was an outlier. He has no upside and very limited trade value. 

Yeah I'm not touching this. You go ahead and have that view. Either way, he was a toss in after two major prospects, one with upside to be a big time prospect, were coming our way.

[foxfield]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

I have no problem with the O's deciding to tear it completely down.   I have a big problem with trading Gausman and Schoop and not getting quality players in return.   There is no reason that they needed to be traded at the deadline if they couldn't get highly rated players back.  They have all winter to get better deals.

I really do not disagree wildcard.  The issue for me though is a lack of knowledge regarding prospects.  I simply have no choice but to rely on the opinion of others.  If Gausman or Schoop were traded for top 100 prospect or prospects it would be easier for us to measure.

We moved Back, O'Day, and Britton from the BP.  Schoop and Manny from the middle infield, and KG from the rotation.  It is easy for me to say we should have gotten more sizzle for those deals.  But folks are comparing this to Syd Thrift dumping guys for nobodies.  I don't think that is fair either.

These 6 people saved the Orioles somewhere in the neighborhood of $30 Million dollars of salary, this year and next.  I am pretty sure the Orioles were not winning this year or next.  The same 6 people would have earned what 18 WAR (this is not my forte admittedly) over the same timeframe?   We also got several million dollars to spend on International pool making us the frontrunners to land VVM and others.

But here is where the rubber meets the road WC.  We received not a bunch of nobodies and not a bunch of AAAA washouts. But some bona fide prospects with 75 plus years of potential ML service.  So does that mean the Orioles are winning the WS in 2020?  No not hardly.  But if we traded for 15 guys and most of them drop into our top 30 then we have done a good and necessary thing.  Yes I would have liked one big name.  

But I dont know....it seems like the floor for this deal is we moved 6 pieces that were not going to help us win over the next 2 years and we have 15 good to sketchy prospects that have 6 years to replace 18 WAR.  The cost alone makes sense.  The modest projection is that one or two of these guys turns into a #3 or #4 starter or a strong back end reliever and maybe a couple borderline everyday guys.  The ceiling is that you have your entire outfield for the next 10 years and half of your infield  3 SP and your entire bullpen.

Look the bottom line is you don't think they got quality back for Gausman and Schoop.  I feel the same.  But given where we are and where we are going to be, I think the Orioles are better today than they were 2 weeks ago.  Is that a stretch:  Of course, but if that type of roster flexibility also gets VVM and others like him....

Burn it down man.

 

[nadecir]

This is the way the rating of baseball players works for the average fan:  The players you just got rid of were not that good really, and the players/prospects you acquire are better than what everyone else thinks.   It's always going to be that way; it's just the nature of being a fan.    

[foxfield]

18 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

We're splitting hairs. They're both not good defensively. And really how Villar stacks up to Schoop is irrelevant because I wasn't suggesting we keep him. Simply delay trading him until the off season. 

You are not splitting hairs.  What you are saying is that the Orioles undersold Schoop to the Brewers and trading him after this season ends would have simply resulted in more.

This is simply false.  First of all, it is possible someone would have paid more, but I suspect the real issue or premise here is that you are overvaluing Schoop now.  Waiting honestly was not likely to change the equation for you since your opinion is that he should have netted more.

That is truly debatable.  

[ISU94]

19 minutes ago, nadecir said:

This is the way the rating of baseball players works for the average fan:  The players you just got rid of were not that good really, and the players/prospects you acquire are better than what everyone else thinks.   It's always going to be that way; it's just the nature of being a fan.    

That's clearly not the mindset most everyone has here. 

Either way we will knew about Schoops limited range. There was a thread about moving him to 3B recently. We all know about how he doesn't walk and hasn't in his last like 90 PA's. 

Was he my favorite player on the Orioles (even prior to dealing Machado)? Yes. But we all knew he had his limitations and we werent going to resign him just to watch his prime years offensively go to waste for the next 3-5 years of rebuilding.

[Frobby]

29 minutes ago, nadecir said:

This is the way the rating of baseball players works for the average fan:  The players you just got rid of were not that good really, and the players/prospects you acquire are better than what everyone else thinks.   It's always going to be that way; it's just the nature of being a fan.    

I’d say it’s the opposite for a lot of fans, who overrate their own players because they’ve grown fond of them.  

[jrobb21613]

When Dan came on board how many of his own people did he bring with him (scouting director, scouts, player development guys etc.)or hire along the way? Did he just inherit what was already here? I think if he’s going to be the man he should be able to build it from the bottom up it’s more than just the major league roster that needs an overhaul.

[atomic]

43 minutes ago, nadecir said:

This is the way the rating of baseball players works for the average fan:  The players you just got rid of were not that good really, and the players/prospects you acquire are better than what everyone else thinks.   It's always going to be that way; it's just the nature of being a fan.    

Strange way to think.  Seems like they wouldn't be very good marriage material.  They would always think their spouse isn't that great and every other potential spouse out there is better than they actually are.  Probably why so many marriages end in divorce

[Ripken]

2 hours ago, Natty said:

The first step to "tear it completely down" is to get rid of the GM.

We did.  Peter is no longer making decisions. 

[atomic]

9 hours ago, Thato'sfan said:

Random thought:

while other teams have gotten praise for trading guys drafted late to get quality talent from the Orioles, I believe the Orioles did a good job largely ignoring draft status. We got players we liked, regardless of them being drafted in later rounds. Some of the guys we got might be overlooked/under rated due to their draft position.

So you basically are saying no matter who we got in return and how lowly other teams scouts thought of the prospects it wuld be a good trade?  You prefer players outside of the top 100 over ones in it because we got the guys we wanted.  This might the most ignorant post I have ever read. 

[Frobby]

12 minutes ago, jrobb21613 said:

When Dan came on board how many of his own people did he bring with him (scouting director, scouts, player development guys etc.)or hire along the way? Did he just inherit what was already here? I think if he’s going to be the man he should be able to build it from the bottom up it’s more than just the major league roster that needs an overhaul.

He made quite a few changes in the scouting department, both personnel and the way duties are divvied up.    The scouting director and his two chief deputies are all Dan hires.    The analytics department are all Dan hires.    I would not say he did a massive overhaul of player development but he did hire a AAA manager, a director of pitching development (now replaced), and promoted a director of player development and got rid of the person holding that title.    He revamped international scouting but then wasn’t able to really operate except at the margins due to ownership restrictions on spending in that area.    Overall, you can’t say Dan wasn’t allowed to bring in his own people.