Orioles set record for futility, will Buck survive?

[Natty]

13 hours ago, LookitsPuck said:

If we're punting Buck, then Duquette 100% has to go.

This^

Rebuilding starts at the top. 

[SteveA]

2 hours ago, weams said:

I guess they weren't the right guys or healthy enough as well. 

But Oakland picks up someone we rejected, Edwin Jackson, and he is a significant contributor to a team that is making a nice playoff run.   2.48 ERA, 3.83 FIP, 1.031 WHIP.   It's frustrating as hell to watch.

And don't get me started on Houston.   Verlander's career seems on a dowward slope -- he goes to Houston and is an immediate Cy Young contender.   Charlie Morton was an average at best 30+ year old pitcher, a career 4th starter, he goes to Houston and is great.   Gerrit Cole was really good in Pittsburgh, but he goes to Houston and becomes a Cy Young contender.

We have highly touted first round draft choices that are top 50 prospects according to ALL the experts -- Matusz, Gausman, Bundy, Harvey -- and we wind up with a washout, a guy who can't stay healthy enough to reach AAA,  and two inconsistent middle of the rotation guys.

[foxfield]

13 hours ago, LookitsPuck said:

If we're punting Buck, then Duquette 100% has to go.

Serious question here....

Given what we have been told about the Orioles dysfunctional FO...since 2014.   The point above does not make sense to me.  I most definitely can accept an argument that DD must also go, but I cannot under any device see that if Buck goes, DD does as well.  Could you elaborate?  

I am assuming...dangerous...that you believe DD should go under any circumstance.  That's ok.   And I am also assuming that you would prefer Buck stay under any circumstance.  Is this correct?

In my humble opinion, Buck has to go and I am a big fan of Buck  It is just not working anymore.  Furthermore, if Buck were to stay...the only circumstance that would not immediately spell doom for the franchise would be if a GM were hired and he genuinely wanted Buck to stay.  I do not see any GM making that call unless that call is made by DD as an extended GM.  If the FO announced extensions of Buck and DD simultaneously then we could all assume safely that the dysfunctional FO was not a concern of ownership regardless of who was in charge.  Further, it would signal to all that in spite of obvious problems, the Orioles were just fine with the status quo and that the changes we are seeing were solely about finances.

So, I guess I am trying to understand your logic...as I really cannot imagine a workable solution to Buck remaining as manager.  And I cannot imagine a less complicated scenario than DD himself being extended and saying he can do this with Buck.   I have said before I am fine with cleaning house.  But I could also accept DD staying.  It is imperative however that the Orioles name a GM, give that person a budget and full control over the baseball operations of the franchise and get this rebuild going.  That rebuilding absolutely has to include the choice of who manages the club.

Rebuilding this club around Buck would be as foolish as rebuilding it around 2015 Chris Davis.  

[weams]

14 minutes ago, SteveA said:

But Oakland picks up someone we rejected, Edwin Jackson, and he is a significant contributor to a team that is making a nice playoff run.   2.48 ERA, 3.83 FIP, 1.031 WHIP.   It's frustrating as hell to watch.

And don't get me started on Houston.   Verlander's career seems on a dowward slope -- he goes to Houston and is an immediate Cy Young contender.   Charlie Morton was an average at best 30+ year old pitcher, a career 4th starter, he goes to Houston and is great.   Gerrit Cole was really good in Pittsburgh, but he goes to Houston and becomes a Cy Young contender.

We have highly touted first round draft choices that are top 50 prospects according to ALL the experts -- Matusz, Gausman, Bundy -- and we wind up with a washout and two inconsistent middle of the rotation guys.

I think 19 teams rejected Edwin

[Dark Helmet]

Buck started losing this team when team leaders like Nick Markakis and Matt Wieters left. Not bringing in Britton was a nail in the coffin. I think the final nail in Buck losing the team was allowing Manny Machado to call his own shots . That said, Bucks act has worn thin on me. I'm ready to see him gone.

[LocoChris]

1 hour ago, Dark Helmet said:

Buck started losing this team when team leaders like Nick Markakis and Matt Wieters left. Not bringing in Britton was a nail in the coffin. I think the final nail in Buck losing the team was allowing Manny Machado to call his own shots . That said, Bucks act has worn thin on me. I'm ready to see him gone.

Not sure why Buck would be blamed for Markakis and Wieters leaving. 

[Uli2001]

20 hours ago, TonySoprano said:

There are those who claim that the Britton decision was when Buck "lost the clubhouse."  2017 started off 15-8 in April against a tough schedule.  The team had only one winning month (August), the rest of the way.  From June-August, 36-46 (.439).  A .360 July is the high water mark of this season.

I do think these kinds of things do matter. It's not that players will let strikes go by or commit errors on purpose. After all, they care about their individual stats. But it's the extra effort on the base paths, the unselfish at-bat to advance a runner, just the joy of playing the game, it's the little things that are gone and they can add up to a major funk.

[Morgan423]

1 hour ago, LocoChris said:

Not sure why Buck would be blamed for Markakis and Wieters leaving. 

Or why he's solely to blame for Manny at SS.  That could have just as easily been a front office attempt to increase his trade value. 

[Morgan423]

I'm honestly 50/50 on retaining DD... in the event that the restraints are actually off, that is.  I think he's solid enough to put a good direction into the rebuild.

But I'd also be just fine with a fresh perspective, as long as we get talent and a vision.

Buck and most, if not all, of the coaching staff needs to be turned over though.  Gotta start fresh there, with the wave of new players who will be coming up.

[Tx Oriole]

5 hours ago, foxfield said:

Serious question here....

Given what we have been told about the Orioles dysfunctional FO...since 2014.   The point above does not make sense to me.  I most definitely can accept an argument that DD must also go, but I cannot under any device see that if Buck goes, DD does as well.  Could you elaborate?  

I am assuming...dangerous...that you believe DD should go under any circumstance.  That's ok.   And I am also assuming that you would prefer Buck stay under any circumstance.  Is this correct?

In my humble opinion, Buck has to go and I am a big fan of Buck  It is just not working anymore.  Furthermore, if Buck were to stay...the only circumstance that would not immediately spell doom for the franchise would be if a GM were hired and he genuinely wanted Buck to stay.  I do not see any GM making that call unless that call is made by DD as an extended GM.  If the FO announced extensions of Buck and DD simultaneously then we could all assume safely that the dysfunctional FO was not a concern of ownership regardless of who was in charge.  Further, it would signal to all that in spite of obvious problems, the Orioles were just fine with the status quo and that the changes we are seeing were solely about finances.

So, I guess I am trying to understand your logic...as I really cannot imagine a workable solution to Buck remaining as manager.  And I cannot imagine a less complicated scenario than DD himself being extended and saying he can do this with Buck.   I have said before I am fine with cleaning house.  But I could also accept DD staying.  It is imperative however that the Orioles name a GM, give that person a budget and full control over the baseball operations of the franchise and get this rebuild going.  That rebuilding absolutely has to include the choice of who manages the club.

Rebuilding this club around Buck would be as foolish as rebuilding it around 2015 Chris Davis.  

Buck should go tomorrow. 

[Tx Oriole]

5 hours ago, Dark Helmet said:

Buck started losing this team when team leaders like Nick Markakis and Matt Wieters left. Not bringing in Britton was a nail in the coffin. I think the final nail in Buck losing the team was allowing Manny Machado to call his own shots . That said, Bucks act has worn thin on me. I'm ready to see him gone.

Me too.

[Dark Helmet]

6 hours ago, LocoChris said:

Not sure why Buck would be blamed for Markakis and Wieters leaving. 

Didnt say he was to blame for them leaving. I said that's when he started losing the team. He lost two key members of the locker room.  

[Dark Helmet]

4 hours ago, Morgan423 said:

Or why he's solely to blame for Manny at SS.  That could have just as easily been a front office attempt to increase his trade value. 

You really think they were thinking trade value when the move to SS was announced? The intent was to make one last playoff run. 

[sportsfan8703]

8 hours ago, SteveA said:

But Oakland picks up someone we rejected, Edwin Jackson, and he is a significant contributor to a team that is making a nice playoff run.   2.48 ERA, 3.83 FIP, 1.031 WHIP.   It's frustrating as hell to watch.

And don't get me started on Houston.   Verlander's career seems on a dowward slope -- he goes to Houston and is an immediate Cy Young contender.   Charlie Morton was an average at best 30+ year old pitcher, a career 4th starter, he goes to Houston and is great.   Gerrit Cole was really good in Pittsburgh, but he goes to Houston and becomes a Cy Young contender.

We have highly touted first round draft choices that are top 50 prospects according to ALL the experts -- Matusz, Gausman, Bundy, Harvey -- and we wind up with a washout, a guy who can't stay healthy enough to reach AAA,  and two inconsistent middle of the rotation guys.

You can’t judge us off Edwin Jackson. This is the guys MO, sometimes he gets on a roll. He has made $66 million over his career. 

What about Chen or Miggy?  What have they done before/after Baltimore?  Pitching is fickle. That’s why you need a ton of depth. We neutralized that for a few years with a top bullpen in baseball. 

[SteveA]

5 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

You can’t judge us off Edwin Jackson. This is the guys MO, sometimes he gets on a roll. He has made $66 million over his career. 

What about Chen or Miggy?  What have they done before/after Baltimore?  Pitching is fickle. That’s why you need a ton of depth. We neutralized that for a few years with a top bullpen in baseball. 

Just one example that came to mind.

Wade Miley has a 2.23 ERA for Milwaukee.

Jeremy Hellickson has a 3.54 ERA for Washington.

TJ McFarland has a 1.93 ERA for Arizona.

Yovani Gallardo is 7-1 for Texas.

Arrieta, Strop.

That's SEVEN guys that we wanted GONE.   They were so bad for us we were sick of them and most people here never wanted to see them again.   And they go somewhere else and are effective in one way or another.

You bring up Miggy... we let him go too and he was effective for the White Sox for over a year.

No one shed a tear when Feldman walked after we briefly had him as a rental.   He went and put up a 107+ ERA for 350 innings with the Astros after leaving here.

So many guys that are so bad we are actively hoping they get released on this message board, go on to have success after they leave here.   How many examples do you need?   There's something rotten here.