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Joseph for the second time calls out the team

Going Underground

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Moose Milligan Hangout Grand Counsel

Moose Milligan

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1 minute ago, Ruzious said:

Rick Dempsey was a post-season star and World Series MVP and had a lifetime OPS+ of 87 vs Caleb's 70.  And Caleb's at 58 this season.      

Rick Dempsey picked a good time to get hot in the WS, the '83 team hit something like .213 as a team in the WS.   I mean, Pat Borders was a WS MVP.  So was Steve Yeager.  Are we really going to play the WS MVP game and then argue for an 87 OPS+?   Just because Caleb is an F doesn't mean that Rick Dempsey's D is amazing.

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Ruzious Hangout Grand Counsel

Ruzious

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2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Rick Dempsey picked a good time to get hot in the WS, the '83 team hit something like .213 as a team in the WS.   I mean, Pat Borders was a WS MVP.  So was Steve Yeager.  Are we really going to play the WS MVP game and then argue for an 87 OPS+?   Just because Caleb is an F doesn't mean that Rick Dempsey's D is amazing.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation and repeat that Caleb Joseph doesn't compare to Rick Dempsey, and I'm not sure how this is even a discussion.  

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Il BuonO Hangout Grand Counsel

Il BuonO

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35 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

Last I checked, it's an indication of performance, and it's hard to have a poor performer being a leader.  Like pretty much every other business, your leaders are going to be top performers

So, Adam Jones has long been considered a leader in the clubhouse. If he tanks, then no one will listen to him because he’s performed poorly?

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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11 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Rick Dempsey picked a good time to get hot in the WS, the '83 team hit something like .213 as a team in the WS.   I mean, Pat Borders was a WS MVP.  So was Steve Yeager.  Are we really going to play the WS MVP game and then argue for an 87 OPS+?   Just because Caleb is an F doesn't mean that Rick Dempsey's D is amazing.

Rick Dempsey had a 25 WAR career, 21 WAR with the O’s.    He wasn’t a star but a solid player.   He wouldn’t have lasted as long as he did if major league teams didn’t think he was pretty good.   And 87 OPS+ probably ranks as average for a catcher in that era.   He’s certainly several cuts above Caleb Joseph.    Has he been dining out on that WS MVP a long time?   Sure.   But he was no doubt a solid contributor to that team and many other winning teams.

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Moose Milligan Hangout Grand Counsel

Moose Milligan

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13 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

I'm going to bow out of this conversation and repeat that Caleb Joseph doesn't compare to Rick Dempsey, and I'm not sure how this is even a discussion.  

Yeah, you're comparing an 87+ to a 70+.   If we were arguing Chris Hoiles 119+ to Caleb Joseph's 70+ I'd be more inclined to agree.

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Moose Milligan Hangout Grand Counsel

Moose Milligan

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1 minute ago, Frobby said:

Rick Dempsey had a 25 WAR career, 21 WAR with the O’s.    He wasn’t a star but a solid player.   He wouldn’t have lasted as long as he did if major league teams didn’t think he was pretty good.   And 87 OPS+ probably ranks as average for a catcher in that era.   He’s certainly several cuts above Caleb Joseph.    Has he been dining out on that WS MVP a long time?   Sure.   But he was no doubt a solid contributor to that team and many other winning teams.

Thanks, Frobby.  If you extrapolate Caleb's 4.3 career WAR over 24 seasons like Dempsey had, you'd probably wind up somewhere in the same ballpark.  25 WAR over 24 seasons isn't much.  I'm not saying Dempsey was a bad player, I agree with your assessment that he was solid, especially for the time period.

My overriding point is that you don't have to be a WAR God to be a leader.  

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Redskins Rick Hangout Grand Counsel

Redskins Rick

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4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Thanks, Frobby.  If you extrapolate Caleb's 4.3 career WAR over 24 seasons like Dempsey had, you'd probably wind up somewhere in the same ballpark.  25 WAR over 24 seasons isn't much.  I'm not saying Dempsey was a bad player, I agree with your assessment that he was solid, especially for the time period.

My overriding point is that you don't have to be a WAR God to be a leader.  

As great as Dempsey was behind the plate, there is no doubt, there would be some flames his way, from OH, if he played in today's ERA.

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Moose Milligan Hangout Grand Counsel

Moose Milligan

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4 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

As great as Dempsey was behind the plate, there is no doubt, there would be some flames his way, from OH, if he played in today's ERA.

Weak hitting scrappy catchers with a lot of grit were cool back in the day.  So were weak hitting middle infielders that hustled.  If advanced stats were as popular back then as they are now, 1985 Orioleshangout.com would be calling for Dempsey's head.

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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14 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Thanks, Frobby.  If you extrapolate Caleb's 4.3 career WAR over 24 seasons like Dempsey had, you'd probably wind up somewhere in the same ballpark.  25 WAR over 24 seasons isn't much.  I'm not saying Dempsey was a bad player, I agree with your assessment that he was solid, especially for the time period.

My overriding point is that you don't have to be a WAR God to be a leader.  

Last point first: I agree.    It does help if you’re at least a decent contributor to the team, and Caleb’s contributions this year are minimal.   But as a veteran who was on some winning teams, I would still expect his words to carry some weight.

Back on Dempsey, I don’t think you can multiply Joseph’s WAR to project him out to 24 years and compare him to Dempsey.    He wasn’t good enough to be in the majors before age 28, and I doubt he’ll be in the majors too many more years.  Dempsey was a much better player, who was worth 11.9 rWAR from ages 28-32, the period in which Joseph has accumulated his 4.3 rWAR.

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Ruzious Hangout Grand Counsel

Ruzious

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23 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

So, Adam Jones has long been considered a leader in the clubhouse. If he tanks, then no one will listen to him because he’s performed poorly?

Huh?  Of course not - he's established himself over many years with the team.  

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Aristotelian Hangout Grand Counsel

Aristotelian

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2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Good message, but the messenger has a .572 OPS and has been worth 0.1 rWAR this season.    

Joseph isn't talking about results or OPS, he is talking about attitude and execution. Fine with me if he wants to voice his frustration.

Also fine with me if he is the first to go based on his production. (Honestly if he was a better player, he would have been traded by now).

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Ruzious Hangout Grand Counsel

Ruzious

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21 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yeah, you're comparing an 87+ to a 70+.   If we were arguing Chris Hoiles 119+ to Caleb Joseph's 70+ I'd be more inclined to agree.

You're seriously killing me - comparing those 2.  

I'm trying to leave, but they keep pulling me back!  :)

 

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Redskins Rick Hangout Grand Counsel

Redskins Rick

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4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Weak hitting scrappy catchers with a lot of grit were cool back in the day.  So were weak hitting middle infielders that hustled.  If advanced stats were as popular back then as they are now, 1985 Orioleshangout.com would be calling for Dempsey's head.

It was pointed out a few times in Wieter's era here, WAR applied to catchers, doesn't really tell the whole story, since the catcher has so much input and involvement in the defense and play of the game.

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