We’re the worst team in the business (Ownership driving decisions) - Dan Duquette

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Duquette is saying all of the right things, but his candor about about ownership suggests one of two things, he's either talked to John Angelos (who I believe is going to be the central figure) and feels he will be back, or he knows he won't be back. My money is on the latter.

That is how I read it too. Sounds like he is throwing Angelos and the Orioles under the bus so he doesn't look as bad to his next employer.

I think DD has to take some of the blame here. When your boss is making a terrible decision, don't you have a duty to keep him from screwing up, or at least go on record against it? Unless the front office is just completely toxic and Angelos is some kind of Mad King tyrant that can't be questioned at all.

[hoosiers]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

And they can do that by coming out and start speaking in public. I hope at this point they are waiting until seasons end, but the longer they stay quiet, the more things are going to be written with the Orioles in a negative light. Everyone wants to know someone is in charge and making decision for this organization long term. 

Duquette is saying all of the right things, but his candor about about ownership suggests one of two things, he's either talked to John Angelos (who I believe is going to be the central figure) and feels he will be back, or he knows he won't be back. My money is on the latter.

I just re-read the article and IMO the quotes from DD are not so bad.  We are the worst team and he is simply candid about that.  He mentions this going in cycles - that's his interpretation of these things go - and says we (and the Royals) had a good run, but now the franchise are not in good shape - in other words, at the bottom end of the cycle. 

He says ownership neglected to invest in our future properly - all as part of a conscious decision to extend the competitiveness portion of our cycle.

Honestly, I am not a DD apologist and was probably among the more critical posters of DD during the 2013-2016 time frame as our present situation seemed quite likely based on the moves of our FO, but the quotes don't sound so bad to me.  We are woefully short on talent, and I believe DD should capture a large share of the blame.  Still, I think continuity is important to an organization and I also believe DD is the right guy to create a competitive international operation and would have little issue if he were given a two year extension - and then re-evaluate the status of the re-build at that point.

[Grt 2BA FL Gator]

Somebody might have already mentioned this in the thread or on the board recently... 

The more this all plays out, the more it feels like 2012-2016 was completely lucky. And that who we actually are as a franchise is a laughingstock. Keith Law and others always seemed antagonistic toward us even in the good times and I never understood all that. Now I feel like it makes sense. 

I always hoped that maybe 2012-2016 could be a springboard, a sign of change, or a sign that Peter Angelos had finally adapted some. 

All this that's coming out feels like we are headed for another long, dark period. And that the 5 year run was an aberration. Which just really sucks. 

Hopefully the sons make some actual changes or sell the team. Otherwise I'm not sure I can stick around actively for another 15 years.  

[Tx Oriole]

59 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

That is how I read it too. Sounds like he is throwing Angelos and the Orioles under the bus so he doesn't look as bad to his next employer.

I think DD has to take some of the blame here. When your boss is making a terrible decision, don't you have a duty to keep him from screwing up, or at least go on record against it? Unless the front office is just completely toxic and Angelos is some kind of Mad King tyrant that can't be questioned at all.

But how could he do that?  CD deal was ownership. Lack of international market was ownership.  But DD does have some blame for sure. I used to want John to keep him but now please clean house. 

[Tx Oriole]

45 minutes ago, hoosiers said:

I just re-read the article and IMO the quotes from DD are not so bad.  We are the worst team and he is simply candid about that.  He mentions this going in cycles - that's his interpretation of these things go - and says we (and the Royals) had a good run, but now the franchise are not in good shape - in other words, at the bottom end of the cycle. 

He says ownership neglected to invest in our future properly - all as part of a conscious decision to extend the competitiveness portion of our cycle.

Honestly, I am not a DD apologist and was probably among the more critical posters of DD during the 2013-2016 time frame as our present situation seemed quite likely based on the moves of our FO, but the quotes don't sound so bad to me.  We are woefully short on talent, and I believe DD should capture a large share of the blame.  Still, I think continuity is important to an organization and I also believe DD is the right guy to create a competitive international operation and would have little issue if he were given a two year extension - and then re-evaluate the status of the re-build at that point.

Maybe so but what if he brought back Buck? I'd be so pissed. 

[jerios55]

I have a few thoughts, but many align with others here.

I would like to add, that if Peter wanted to focus on getting one WS in his lifetime, I don't get why it had to come at the expense of everything else.  I get you don't want to operate at huge losses or anything, but the man is worth 2 billion.  His legacy is no WS and a beaten down system. 

We'd all like to have a WS in our recent history.  However, there are lots of good teams every year that miss in the end.  What we are left with looks be be quite the horror.  There will be inheritance to family and I get that's important, but how much was needed?  Would he really have lost that much to maintain international signings and scouts (if at all)? 

None of this is my money (if I had that much, I'd be talking to the O's about purchasing the team :)) , but it just seems weird, that they pumped all this money to the MLB team and there was no other funds to try and remain competitive in the future as well. 

[LC_O's_87]

12 minutes ago, Grt 2BA FL Gator said:

Somebody might have already mentioned this in the thread or on the board recently... 

The more this all plays out, the more it feels like 2012-2016 was completely lucky. And that who we actually are as a franchise is a laughingstock. Keith Law and others always seemed antagonistic toward us even in the good times and I never understood all that. Now I feel like it makes sense. 

I always hoped that maybe 2012-2016 could be a springboard, a sign of change, or a sign that Peter Angelos had finally adapted some. 

All this that's coming out feels like we are headed for another long, dark period. And that the 5 year run was an aberration. Which just really sucks. 

Hopefully the sons make some actual changes or sell the team. Otherwise I'm not sure I can stick around actively for another 15 years.  

I don't think you can call 5 years' worth of results lucky...They play too many games for it to be lucky.

But, I agree with your overall point that this year and last year were more of a reversion to the mean for the Peter Angelos era.

It's a fitting final chapter for PA era that he should have the team with the worst single season record in franchise history.

 

 

[Grt 2BA FL Gator]

3 minutes ago, LC_O's_87 said:

I don't think you can call 5 years' worth of results lucky...They play too many games for it to be lucky.

But, I agree with your overall point that this year and last year were more of a reversion to the mean for the Peter Angelos era.

It's a fitting final chapter for PA era that he should have the team with the worst single season record in franchise history.

 

 

Also, I didn't necessarily mean that the teams were lucky. More that as an organization we were lucky to run into some good teams. Obviously PA hired a good one in MacPhail and let him run some things. We had some trades work out and a nasty bullpen. But other than that, looks like the same ol' story. 

[SteveA]

4 hours ago, hoosiers said:

I don't doubt at all that this is what happened.  I spent much time defending PA here a while back, but the selfishness inherent in the post above from PA is spectacular and a primary reason why there is no appropriate reason to defend him anymore.  The Os have been in this "all-in" Machado window for several years and it is clear the reason for this had more to do with PA's health and his desire to see another WS victory in his lifetime than to do what was in the best interest of the organization.  There is no way, for instance, that DD and BS did not realize would we not be competitive this season and did not recommend selling off pieces before the season.

At the same time, however, I would like to point out two things.  We would not be the first organization DD left that had mediocre forward prospects and an average or worse farm system.  DD was probably on-board or even devised the competitive window that has been seized by ownership for the "all in" effort the last several seasons that included ownership taking up the payroll into the $160M area.

The second thing is that DD is not without blame here.  I don't think it was Peter Angelos who picked out Travis Snider as a trade target in 2015.  Or who tried to sign Grant Balfour for 2014.  Or who offered Brian Matusz arbitration prior to 2016 and then dealt him 1.5 months into the season along with a high draft pick.  Or who signed Ryan Webb to a two year deal and then dealt Webb away a year later along with a high draft pick.  And I don't really care if PA coaxed DD into signing Jimenez and Gallardo to awful contracts while losing draft picks or if those moves are strictly on DD, the fact of the matter is that we had very few options otherwise given DD's neglect of the farm, his trades (Jake, Davies, EdRod, etc.). 

As far as I am concerned, what DD speaks now of ownership's decisions reflect half-truths of responsibility  Management did not invest properly internationally, sure, but management also gave DD a $160+M payroll that he had mediocre success with.  When did DD realize he should pull back and sell assets?  And even if that time were in 2015 and 2016, isn't that a realization that the team he had inherited and built upon for several years was uncompetitive.

Didn't he leave the Red Sox in great shape and Epstein came in and made a few moves and got them their first World Series in a million years?

[weams]

47 minutes ago, Grt 2BA FL Gator said:

Somebody might have already mentioned this in the thread or on the board recently... 

The more this all plays out, the more it feels like 2012-2016 was completely lucky. And that who we actually are as a franchise is a laughingstock. Keith Law and others always seemed antagonistic toward us even in the good times and I never understood all that. Now I feel like it makes sense. 

I always hoped that maybe 2012-2016 could be a springboard, a sign of change, or a sign that Peter Angelos had finally adapted some. 

All this that's coming out feels like we are headed for another long, dark period. And that the 5 year run was an aberration. Which just really sucks. 

Hopefully the sons make some actual changes or sell the team. Otherwise I'm not sure I can stick around actively for another 15 years.  

The fans of the other 29 franchise love the way you are thinking. 

[SteveA]

40 minutes ago, Grt 2BA FL Gator said:

Somebody might have already mentioned this in the thread or on the board recently... 

The more this all plays out, the more it feels like 2012-2016 was completely lucky. And that who we actually are as a franchise is a laughingstock. Keith Law and others always seemed antagonistic toward us even in the good times and I never understood all that. Now I feel like it makes sense. 

I always hoped that maybe 2012-2016 could be a springboard, a sign of change, or a sign that Peter Angelos had finally adapted some. 

All this that's coming out feels like we are headed for another long, dark period. And that the 5 year run was an aberration. Which just really sucks. 

Hopefully the sons make some actual changes or sell the team. Otherwise I'm not sure I can stick around actively for another 15 years.  

Five years is not an aberration.   We did some GOOD things as an organization (both under McPhail and Duquette) to get those 5 years.   We drafted and developed a Hall of Fame 3rd baseman, a good major league 2nd baseman, a good major league C, a great closer, a decent starter, some solid relievers, and a few other decent pieces.    We traded for a very good starting pitcher and the greatest center fielder in franchise history in one deal.   We traded not very much to get a guy who led the major leagues in home runs twice, and cheaply acquired two guys who led the majors in home runs once each.   We found a solid starting pitcher toiling in anonymity in the Mexican League, another in Taiwan, and another buried in the Indians' minor league system.  We got an excellent setup man for several years for absolutely nothing.   We got useful production just when we needed it out of guys who were basically rejects from other teams like Pearce, McLouth, Valencia, Bourn, Young, Saunders and a couple rule 5 picks.   And we made the playoffs 3 out of 5 years in the toughest division to do so in baseball.

A lot of mistakes were made too that led to where we are now.   We traded away too much of the future to try to maximize our talent during the "window".   But this organization did a lot of things RIGHT to have one of baseball's best records for a 5 year stretch.

[weams]

10 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Didn't he leave the Red Sox in great shape and Epstein came in and made a few moves and got them their first World Series in a million years?

Yes. Theo did make that one trade though. For Orlando Cabrera and Alphabet Soup.

[weams]

34 minutes ago, jerios55 said:

I have a few thoughts, but many align with others here.

I would like to add, that if Peter wanted to focus on getting one WS in his lifetime, I don't get why it had to come at the expense of everything else.  I get you don't want to operate at huge losses or anything, but the man is worth 2 billion.  His legacy is no WS and a beaten down system. 

We'd all like to have a WS in our recent history.  However, there are lots of good teams every year that miss in the end.  What we are left with looks be be quite the horror.  There will be inheritance to family and I get that's important, but how much was needed?  Would he really have lost that much to maintain international signings and scouts (if at all)? 

None of this is my money (if I had that much, I'd be talking to the O's about purchasing the team :)) , but it just seems weird, that they pumped all this money to the MLB team and there was no other funds to try and remain competitive in the future as well. 

Not close to 2 Billion. Not close. And liquid? Please.

[weams]

Does anyone ever wonder if he owned some Greek debt?

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, SteveA said:

Five years is not an aberration.   We did some GOOD things as an organization (both under McPhail and Duquette) to get those 5 years.   We drafted and developed a Hall of Fame 3rd baseman, a good major league 2nd baseman, a good major league C, a great closer, a decent starter, some solid relievers, and a few other decent pieces.    We traded for a very good starting pitcher and the greatest center fielder in franchise history in one deal.   We traded not very much to get a guy who led the major leagues in home runs twice, and cheaply acquired two guys who led the majors in home runs once each.   We found a solid starting pitcher toiling in anonymity in the Mexican League, another in Taiwan, and another buried in the Indians' minor league system.  We got an excellent setup man for several years for absolutely nothing.   We got useful production just when we needed it out of guys who were basically rejects from other teams like Pearce, McLouth, Valencia, Bourn, Young, Saunders and a couple rule 5 picks.   And we made the playoffs 3 out of 5 years in the toughest division to do so in baseball.

A lot of mistakes were made too that led to where we are now.   We traded away too much of the future to try to maximize our talent during the "window".   But this organization did a lot of things RIGHT to have one of baseball's best records for a 5 year stretch.

NIce post.