A couple of thoughts about our current catchers and Adley Rutschman

[Sessh]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

You NEVER need a first baseman more than a catcher.

You can always move someone to first, you pretty much can't ever move someone to catcher.

Now I have no issue with giving him the occasional start at first but your killing his value if you move him full time.

He's not gonna forget how to play catcher and could always move back there if necessary. If we end up having a solid/star catcher and are still without a decent option at first base, then you need a first baseman more.

[Sessh]

5 minutes ago, Cy Bundy said:

We drafted 27 catchers, Adley is replaceable unless you’re saying you don’t believe in our ability to draft, I hope you would not suggest that, please give the new front office time.

That's not what I was saying at all. I have no problem with our draft choices. I'm just saying Adley's versatility is a plus and may be useful if a catcher establishes himself before he gets here and we are still lacking a good option at first base.

[Just Regular]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

You NEVER need a first baseman more than a catcher.

You can always move someone to first, you pretty much can't ever move someone to catcher.

Now I have no issue with giving him the occasional start at first but your killing his value if you move him full time.

In the category of "problems I hope to have", he could muddy the water if in his first 500 PA's or so he hits enough (310/390/550?) to make Elias think hard about giving the bat a shot at 12000 PA's instead of catching him into the ground for 6.8 years.

[Yachtsman]

You may be thinking of the wrong side of the infield. In any event, he plays a premium position, so talk about a switch is years away at this point.

[DrungoHazewood]

8 hours ago, OrioleDog said:

In the category of "problems I hope to have", he could muddy the water if in his first 500 PA's or so he hits enough (310/390/550?) to make Elias think hard about giving the bat a shot at 12000 PA's instead of catching him into the ground for 6.8 years.

So basically you're saying the Reds made a mistake by making Bench a catcher, they'd have been better off with him at first.  Also, Yogi, Dickey, Piazza, Hartnett, Fisk, Mauer, Carter, Simmons...  All wasted thousands of productive PAs.

Just think... the '71 Reds could have traded Lee May and his .864 OPS for something.  Put Bench in his spot at first.  And then played Pat Corrales and his .567 OPS at catcher.  Or maybe traded Lee May's big bat for a better catcher than Corrales...  Or maybe just played the star catcher at his natural position.

[Sessh]

4 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

So basically you're saying the Reds made a mistake by making Bench a catcher, they'd have been better off with him at first.  Also, Yogi, Dickey, Piazza, Hartnett, Fisk, Mauer, Carter, Simmons...  All wasted thousands of productive PAs.

Just think... the '71 Reds could have traded Lee May and his .864 OPS for something.  Put Bench in his spot at first.  And then played Pat Corrales and his .567 OPS at catcher.  Or maybe traded Lee May's big bat for a better catcher than Corrales...  Or maybe just played the star catcher at his natural position.

Obviously, if the best we have at catcher is a .567 OPS guy, Rutschman will catch. The position carries a higher risk of injury. Joe Mauer had knee problems for many years of his career and a concussion he suffered behind the plate 2013 at the age of 30 turned perhaps the best hitter in baseball into a rather pedestrian hitter. It significantly altered his career and was what ultimately forced him to retire at 35. The bottom line is if Rutschman is as good as advertised with the bat and we have a solid/star catcher already on the roster, honing Rutschman's skills at first base is the smart thing to do. He can always be a catcher again later if necessary. I am not suggesting he give up being a catcher, but if we have a solid option there already and we are still lacking a decent option at first base, he should play first base. If we ever need a catcher to step in, we have Rutschman which is a great situation to be in for us. What I don't want to do is put his career at risk if he's going to be one of the best hitters in baseball one day.

[Sessh]

As for Johnny Bench, here is an article of him talking about Mauer's HoF chances and he said this in one paragraph:

Quote

“It is still the same,” Bench said of Mauer’s career, now in its 14th major league season. “It takes 10 years to be in the Hall of Fame, for sure, as a catcher. But as a catcher, with all the problems, the legs and concussions…we had concussions, but we didn’t treat them the same way; they said ‘you’re in the lineup today’ and that’s it, and you never questioned it, so you played past your concussion.

Johnny Bench played through concussions. You think any player can still do that today? If Johnny Bench was playing in today's game and had a concussion, he wouldn't be "playing past" it. He'd be on the IL. The comparison to Bench isn't really applicable here because the game is different in this regard. Guys played through things back then that would never be allowed today.

[Just Regular]

4 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

So basically you're saying the Reds made a mistake by making Bench a catcher, they'd have been better off with him at first.  Also, Yogi, Dickey, Piazza, Hartnett, Fisk, Mauer, Carter, Simmons...  All wasted thousands of productive PAs.

Just think... the '71 Reds could have traded Lee May and his .864 OPS for something.  Put Bench in his spot at first.  And then played Pat Corrales and his .567 OPS at catcher.  Or maybe traded Lee May's big bat for a better catcher than Corrales...  Or maybe just played the star catcher at his natural position.

I wouldn't say mistake, but I think I would say Bench muddied the water.  

This was in my infancy, but wasn't he famously atrocious at 3B when they stuck him there for 36 games in his Age 26 1974 season?  I don't know why they did that.

I'm only saying I think it is conceivable for a hitter to be so good for 15+ years that you wouldn't want to burn out his body in 7-8 years of catching (Matt Wieters was not this).   I know he catches way better than Carlos Delgado ever could, so it'd be a bigger bar to clear but that's the kernel of the idea, and of course an early extension would be needed to make the Orioles stakeholders in his free agency years.   I'm 98% sure we're hoping to beat Wieters's 4 All-Star games at catcher.

I suppose playing out the scenario one would hope Sisco, Severino, or one of the non-Rutschman catcher draftees develops into something better than Pat Corrales.

[Redskins Rick]

11 minutes ago, OrioleDog said:

I wouldn't say mistake, but I think I would say Bench muddied the water.  

This was in my infancy, but wasn't he famously atrocious at 3B when they stuck him there for 36 games in his Age 26 1974 season?  I don't know why they did that.

I'm only saying I think it is conceivable for a hitter to be so good for 15+ years that you wouldn't want to burn out his body in 7-8 years of catching (Matt Wieters was not this).   I know he catches way better than Carlos Delgado ever could, so it'd be a bigger bar to clear but that's the kernel of the idea, and of course an early extension would be needed to make the Orioles stakeholders in his free agency years.   I'm 98% sure we're hoping to beat Wieters's 4 All-Star games at catcher.

I suppose playing out the scenario one would hope Sisco, Severino, or one of the non-Rutschman catcher draftees develops into something better than Pat Corrales.

Bench played games at 1st, 3rd and the COF, through out his career, including 2 games in CF.

Even at the age of 22, he was at 1st and the OF for some games.

I suspect they were trying to keep his bat in the lineup, and at the same time, rest his body from the rigors of daily catching.

 

[Just Regular]

4 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

So basically you're saying the Reds made a mistake by making Bench a catcher, they'd have been better off with him at first.  Also, Yogi, Dickey, Piazza, Hartnett, Fisk, Mauer, Carter, Simmons...  All wasted thousands of productive PAs.

Just think... the '71 Reds could have traded Lee May and his .864 OPS for something.  Put Bench in his spot at first.  And then played Pat Corrales and his .567 OPS at catcher.  Or maybe traded Lee May's big bat for a better catcher than Corrales...  Or maybe just played the star catcher at his natural position.

Also, just to declare my bias, I'm probably running hogwild with daydreams here about Rutschman being for my 4-year old what Eddie was to me.  Rutschman has 20ish pounds on him (B-Ref has Eddie at 6-2, 190), but notwithstanding the haircut, that's what I flash on optimistically watching Rutschman in the batters box, switch hitting and all.

I wouldn't say no to the kiddo having a Johnny Bench experience.

 

[Ruzious]

42 minutes ago, Sessh said:

As for Johnny Bench, here is an article of him talking about Mauer's HoF chances and he said this in one paragraph:

Johnny Bench played through concussions. You think any player can still do that today? If Johnny Bench was playing in today's game and had a concussion, he wouldn't be "playing past" it. He'd be on the IL. The comparison to Bench isn't really applicable here because the game is different in this regard. Guys played through things back then that would never be allowed today.

I don't here much about catchers nowadays getting concussions.  Probably the rule change a few years ago designed to avoid home-plate collisions have made it safer to be a catcher.  No idiots like Pete Rose running 100 MPH at Ray Fosse's knees.  

[Ruzious]

Just now, Ruzious said:

I don't here much about catchers nowadays getting concussions.  Probably the rule changes a few years ago designed to avoid home-plate collisions have made it safer to be a catcher.  No idiots like Pete Rose running 100 MPH at Ray Fosse's knees.  

It's "hear" doof.  

[Redskins Rick]

3 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

I don't here much about catchers nowadays getting concussions.  Probably the rule change a few years ago designed to avoid home-plate collisions have made it safer to be a catcher.  No idiots like Pete Rose running 100 MPH at Ray Fosse's knees.  

The trouble is, yes, the collisions did make it safer.

But, how many times, have you seen the batter hit the catcher in the bat of the head with his follow through?

Not to mention foul tips to the face mask like Severino last night, lucky for him, he passed the concussion protocol test and didnt get one.

Or a foul ball to the ole nuts, which can be painful, if not deadly.

[Sessh]

37 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

I don't here much about catchers nowadays getting concussions.  Probably the rule change a few years ago designed to avoid home-plate collisions have made it safer to be a catcher.  No idiots like Pete Rose running 100 MPH at Ray Fosse's knees.  

Not as much, no, but Redskins eluded to getting hit in the head with a bat during the follow through. Severino caught a foul ball in the mask which is how Mauer got his concussion. Gary Sanchez had to go through concussion tests last month from a bat to the head, but fortunately was fine. Posey spent time on the concussion list last month from a foul tip to the mask. Francisco Cervelli took a backswing to the head last month and spent time on the concussion list and he's had numerous concussions over his career already. Kevan Smith was put on the concussion list last month after being hit with a foul tip in the mask. John Jaso's career was ended by concussions years ago. Grandal, David Ross and many, many others have suffered concussions either from backswings or foul tips. Getting hit in the mask with 90+ MPH fastballs will eventually cause a concussion.

The risk is always there and isn't negligible. One bad concussion is all it takes and catchers are more likely than any other position player to sustain them even with the new rules in place. It's still an issue and I don't want my best player (potentially) playing back there full time. I don't think it's smart at all and I think it will ultimately change how we look at catchers. I think any catcher should be able to play at least one other position other than pitcher.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Sessh said:

Not as much, no, but Redskins eluded to getting hit in the head with a bat during the follow through. Severino caught a foul ball in the mask which is how Mauer got his concussion. Gary Sanchez had to go through concussion tests last month from a bat to the head, but fortunately was fine. Posey spent time on the concussion list last month from a foul tip to the mask. Francisco Cervelli took a backswing to the head last month and spent time on the concussion list and he's had numerous concussions over his career already. Kevan Smith was put on the concussion list last month after being hit with a foul tip in the mask. John Jaso's career was ended by concussions years ago. Grandal, David Ross and many, many others have suffered concussions either from backswings or foul tips. Getting hit in the mask with 90+ MPH fastballs will eventually cause a concussion.

The risk is always there and isn't negligible. One bad concussion is all it takes and catchers are more likely than any other position player to sustain them even with the new rules in place. It's still an issue and I don't want my best player (potentially) playing back there full time. I don't think it's smart at all and I think it will ultimately change how we look at catchers. I think any catcher should be able to play at least one other position other than pitcher.

Maybe one day we'll go back to catching 1870s style: Unless it's two strikes the catcher is 10 feet behind the plate and just kind of smothers the pitch in the dirt on the bounce.  That has to be safer.  People survived catching back then with basically no protective equipment at all.