I really want to keep Villar (Update: Traded to Marlins for LHS Easton Lucas)

[weams]

27 minutes ago, jerios55 said:

When we got into last season, to me it was clear we had no shot of keeping Manny.  Sure I would love to have him still, but I didn't see us having a shot.  I think close to everyone felt that way.

I was expecting Villar to be gone this year too (not with this level of surprise/confusion), but I can see why many people would want him and expected us having a shot to keep him (it's arbitration so for the right $$ level he'd be forced to stay). 

I think that shot to keep him is why it feels like more people are on the wagon.  If the comparison was apples to apples (10 mill for Manny vs 10 mill for Villar) you'd get a better sense of which player people would rather be an Oriole. 

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bs-sp-orioles-jonathan-villar-20191202-mergmoqfazg2hogi5slfjetlmy-story.html

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, interloper said:

I'm more and more ok with letting Villar walk. It really just doesn't matter. Yeah, it's a mandate from ownership to keep payroll low during the rebuild, but honestly that's fine as long as the dollars are there when it matters/Elias wants them, which we have no reason to believe isn't the case at the moment. Villar isn't going to help Elias field a winning team, so what does he care? He probably doesn't, and it frees up a roster spot to tinker with and acquire a guy with control/options. 

In the grand scheme of things, this move is really pretty meaningless. I don't think Elias is losing any sleep over it and he might prefer Villar be off the roster anyway. 

But I think you are missing out on the part about how this looks to fans and others in the industry. What team just releases or non-tenders it's best player who is 28-years old an coming off a 4-win season?

While I agree that this probably does not affect the timeline for the Orioles to be a contending team in the future, it does show that this organization will be cold and heartless when it comes to their bottom line. How will you be able to trust an organization that will do this? 

What makes you think Mancini won't be next? Let's fast forward and say the team is not competitive and suddenly Rutchsman is expensive and close to fee agency? Just release him, right? 

If Villar is just non-tendered or released or basically given away, I believe the team has just set an ugly precedence. Seriously, who would go pay money to watch the team next year after what they did? They basically just told their fans that they will release any player on the roster if they get too expensive, regardless of their production and enjoyment the fans get out of watching them.

I completely understand what the team is in the middle of, but just outright releasing good players over money that won't make a difference to anything but ownership's bottom line is not a a way to keep or develop fans.

[weams]

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

But I think you are missing out on the part about how this looks to fans and others in the industry. What team just releases or non-tenders it's best player who is 28-years old an coming off a 4-win season?

While I agree that this probably does not affect the timeline for the Orioles to be a contending team in the future, it does show that this organization will be cold and heartless when it comes to their bottom line. How will you be able to trust an organization that will do this? 

What makes you think Mancini won't be next? Let's fast forward and say the team is not competitive and suddenly Rutchsman is expensive and close to fee agency? Just release him, right? 

If Villar is just non-tendered or released or basically given away, I believe the team has just set an ugly precedence. Seriously, who would go pay money to watch the team next year after what they did? They basically just told their fans that they will release any player on the roster if they get too expensive, regardless of their production and enjoyment the fans get out of watching them.

I completely understand what the team is in the middle of, but just outright releasing good players over money that won't make a difference to anything but ownership's bottom line is not a a way to keep or develop fans.

I think Mancini will come after Bundy. But same difference. They are tearing it down to the studs. 

[osfan83]

6 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

But I think you are missing out on the part about how this looks to fans and others in the industry. What team just releases or non-tenders it's best player who is 28-years old an coming off a 4-win season?

While I agree that this probably does not affect the timeline for the Orioles to be a contending team in the future, it does show that this organization will be cold and heartless when it comes to their bottom line. How will you be able to trust an organization that will do this? 

What makes you think Mancini won't be next? Let's fast forward and say the team is not competitive and suddenly Rutchsman is expensive and close to fee agency? Just release him, right? 

If Villar is just non-tendered or released or basically given away, I believe the team has just set an ugly precedence. Seriously, who would go pay money to watch the team next year after what they did? They basically just told their fans that they will release any player on the roster if they get too expensive, regardless of their production and enjoyment the fans get out of watching them.

I completely understand what the team is in the middle of, but just outright releasing good players over money that won't make a difference to anything but ownership's bottom line is not a a way to keep or develop fans.

This is kind of where I'm at. Yes we need to rebuild, but you have to at least pretend to want to be competitive during the rebuild. At this point I see no reason to go to or watch a game next year. Just wake me up when they are done rebuilding. 

[sportsfan8703]

What if they think Kumar Rocker is the next Strasburg and they want to make sure to finish last this year to get the #1 pick?  

[Roll Tide]

2 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

What if they think Kumar Rocker is the next Strasburg and they want to make sure to finish last this year to get the #1 pick?  

Tanking like this is absurd. Behavior like that should cause heavy fines and removal of the owner by a forced sale IMO

I understand rebuilding but I think losing on purpose is unforgivable.

[Greg Pappas]

The 1 PM deadline for Villar clearing waivers (or not) is nearly upon us.

[weams]

Just now, Roll Tide said:

Tanking like this is absurd. Behavior like that should cause heavy fines and removal of the owner by a forced sale IMO

I understand rebuilding but I think losing on purpose is unforgivable.

I am sure the owners who wish to do this will bring it up at the winter meetings. Labor has no say until they negotiate their next deal. 

[weams]

1 minute ago, Roll Tide said:

Tanking like this is absurd. Behavior like that should cause heavy fines and removal of the owner by a forced sale IMO

I understand rebuilding but I think losing on purpose is unforgivable.

You know how they can force a sale? The can force the team into spending more money than they have. One of the few forced sale premises is lake of liquidity. 

[mdbdotcom]

16 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

But I think you are missing out on the part about how this looks to fans and others in the industry. What team just releases or non-tenders it's best player who is 28-years old an coming off a 4-win season?

While I agree that this probably does not affect the timeline for the Orioles to be a contending team in the future, it does show that this organization will be cold and heartless when it comes to their bottom line. How will you be able to trust an organization that will do this? 

What makes you think Mancini won't be next? Let's fast forward and say the team is not competitive and suddenly Rutchsman is expensive and close to fee agency? Just release him, right? 

If Villar is just non-tendered or released or basically given away, I believe the team has just set an ugly precedence. Seriously, who would go pay money to watch the team next year after what they did? They basically just told their fans that they will release any player on the roster if they get too expensive, regardless of their production and enjoyment the fans get out of watching them.

I completely understand what the team is in the middle of, but just outright releasing good players over money that won't make a difference to anything but ownership's bottom line is not a a way to keep or develop fans.

I see it more like deciding whether or not to give a pending free agent a qualifying offer. For Villar, the QO is around $10 million. Is that a good investment for the team? I don't think so, especially if no one else is willing to pay him that. Should have made the same decision with Wieters.

[jerios55]

40 minutes ago, weams said:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bs-sp-orioles-jonathan-villar-20191202-mergmoqfazg2hogi5slfjetlmy-story.html

I am unsure why you quoted my Manny vs. Villar comment for this, but interesting article.  Haha.

[weams]

Just now, jerios55 said:

I am unsure why you quoted my Manny vs. Villar comment for this, but interesting article.  Haha.

Wanted to give you some visibility!

[Roll Tide]

13 minutes ago, weams said:

You know how they can force a sale? The can force the team into spending more money than they have. One of the few forced sale premises is lake of liquidity. 

Pie in the sky Weams...if they mandated $120 million in payroll teams would be using up their 110 million National  tv contract money and 10 million of their regional tv money or game revenue or sponsorship money or the extra money that the bottom feeders collect from the overspenders.

This shouldn’t put any team owner under. And most certainly not the Orioles 

[Orioles0615]

2 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

I like Villar, dont get me wrong.

But, it seams like more people are on the keep Villar wagon, than was on the keep Manny wagon.

To me its not about keeping him, its letting him go for nothing. If the O's can't get a trade because of his salary you eat salary in a deal. Or you trade him at the deadline if he is playing well when his salary is now only for two months, where again you could eat salary if you have to.

[Roll Tide]

16 minutes ago, mdbdotcom said:

I see it more like deciding whether or not to give a pending free agent a qualifying offer. For Villar, the QO is around $10 million. Is that a good investment for the team? I don't think so, especially if no one else is willing to pay him that. Should have made the same decision with Wieters.

But ... If you eat some of that salary then he could be traded. The Orioles have the revenue and need prospects in the pipeline. Prospects that help the team in a couples year rather than 17 year old Latino players that are 6+ years from making any difference.

iIf the Orioles paid half of the alleged 10 million that he might be awarded and it netted them a couple organizational top 30 (nontop 100 guys )

It is well worth the money that would be spent in the endeavor