Taking a two year perspective

[Moose Milligan]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

There is a lot of negative on the board.  Lot of it is hard to read.   Fans come here for enjoyment.   Its not necessary to look at the negative side all the time.

There are positive things to talk about. If I look at the O's players that played last year half of them will be gone in 2022.   Some of the new ones should be better.   

Posters tear down the John Angelos and say all kinds of things with no proof at all.  He committed to the rebuild.  Hired a good guy to lead it.  Has supported international efforts, analytics, the new development system,  paying for high draft choices.   Losing can't be fun for him anymore than it is for the fans.   But some posters just want to trash him with no proof.

Elias is doing exactly what he said he would do.  We should be through he worst of the rebuild.  The tear down.  Now we get to see the fun part.  The build up.  The high draft choices and some young players that came in trades beginning their careers in the majors.  And it looks like their will be more and more for several years to come.

If posters want to be negative go post in a negative thread.  There are plenty of them.  When I start a positive  thread its for those that want to hear and think positively.  I like those posters to add to it and give their constructive input.  I wish the guys that want to be negative would go post in the other threads.   We ready don't need to read that stuff all the time.

I can probably find something positive to post most every day.  That is the way I want to spend my free time.  It is possible to be realistic and positive at the same time.  Yes, even about the O's.

You call it negative, I call it realistic.  And realistic because this franchise has not given us a lot of reasons to be optimistic over the years.  Despite the disaster that has consisted of the ML roster for the past 3+ seasons, there's hopefully some help on the horizon.  As you've noted, Elias has done a solid job in getting the franchise into the 21st century with international efforts, analytics, development, etc...but I also find it sad that we have to applaud the Angelos family for taking forever to bring someone onboard to get this franchise back to the pack of what other ML teams are doing.   It's not like this franchise is innovative.

You do bring up some decent points about John Angelos, but he still hasn't spent any money on the ML roster in the past 3+ years.  I'm not saying we have to be bringing in guys who are going to command 150 million, 200 million, 300 million contracts but it's absurd that the roster hasn't been bolstered by mid-tier free agents in recent years.  

If it turns out that it's Elias's decision to not spend, that's on him, then.  Maybe it's both of their decisions, who knows.   

But if you don't want to be challenged on what you have to say, then why post at all?  It's no fun if you want to live in an echo-chamber and read people who 

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

You call it negative, I call it realistic.  And realistic because this franchise has not given us a lot of reasons to be optimistic over the years.  Despite the disaster that has consisted of the ML roster for the past 3+ seasons, there's hopefully some help on the horizon.  As you've noted, Elias has done a solid job in getting the franchise into the 21st century with international efforts, analytics, development, etc...but I also find it sad that we have to applaud the Angelos family for taking forever to bring someone onboard to get this franchise back to the pack of what other ML teams are doing.   It's not like this franchise is innovative.

You do bring up some decent points about John Angelos, but he still hasn't spent any money on the ML roster in the past 3+ years.  I'm not saying we have to be bringing in guys who are going to command 150 million, 200 million, 300 million contracts but it's absurd that the roster hasn't been bolstered by mid-tier free agents in recent years.  

If it turns out that it's Elias's decision to not spend, that's on him, then.  Maybe it's both of their decisions, who knows.   

But if you don't want to be challenged on what you have to say, then why post at all?  It's no fun if you want to live in an echo-chamber and read people who 

If posters want to talk sensibly  then I am fine with that.  I will post my thoughts.  Agree or disagree.  But I am not going to argue about it.

Your 1st paragraph sounds like you want to indict the son for the father's sins.  I give John a clean slate.

Elias has been clear.  He is focused on adding talent to help the team get to the playoffs.   IMO he is not going to spend much on anything that does not do that.  We shouldn't expect it IMO.

 

 

[HowAboutThat]

On 11/26/2021 at 1:14 PM, Sports Guy said:

 

Fair enough but people here just think you are going to go from some 65ish win team to contending.  It’s such a poor line of thought.

 

2011-2012 saw a 24-game improvement. A lot of that was was lucky pick ups(Hammel, Mclouth, Saunders) and calling up Manny. In 2013, we regressed to 85, which is probably a better indicator of how good the team was without the luck we had in 2012, but it is true that we can add 25 wins in 2022 without ruining the damn “Plan”

We need to have good seasons from our prospects, and if guys like Mateo win a spot, they have to produce. Can Mateo give us a 2 WAR season? I don’t know. He hasn’t, but the potential is certainly there. Tanner Scott never has, and yet we keep throwing his lame ass out there. Chance Sisco was awful from day 1, but we kept him for way too long. No reason not to give Mateo a chance. 
but I digress.

If 2-3 of our high prospect arms meet their potential, if we acquire a good infielder, Santander is healthy, and Good and AR come up quickly, then sure we can. That’s a lot of IF, but it’s neither impossible, nor even improbable.

Its all a question of whether Mike wants to wait.

[Explosivo]

One thing we have in abundance that others do not is opportunity. We have the ability to give these players time to see if they can figure it out. In two years, the bulk of our top talent will be ready to join the club. This year and next will be dedicated to finding out which pieces fit into the mix of what we have already drafted. The rest will come through pulling out the checkbook to fill the spots we need to be a World Series winner. I’m glad you guys are waking up and getting comfortable with the realization that we are two years away. It takes patience but that patience is going to pay off. Also, invest in HMBL. Thank you.

[Sports Guy]

8 hours ago, Philip said:

2011-2012 saw a 24-game improvement. A lot of that was was lucky pick ups(Hammel, Mclouth, Saunders) and calling up Manny. In 2013, we regressed to 85, which is probably a better indicator of how good the team was without the luck we had in 2012, but it is true that we can add 25 wins in 2022 without ruining the damn “Plan”

We need to have good seasons from our prospects, and if guys like Mateo win a spot, they have to produce. Can Mateo give us a 2 WAR season? I don’t know. He hasn’t, but the potential is certainly there. Tanner Scott never has, and yet we keep throwing his lame ass out there. Chance Sisco was awful from day 1, but we kept him for way too long. No reason not to give Mateo a chance. 
but I digress.

If 2-3 of our high prospect arms meet their potential, if we acquire a good infielder, Santander is healthy, and Good and AR come up quickly, then sure we can. That’s a lot of IF, but it’s neither impossible, nor even improbable.

Its all a question of whether Mike wants to wait.

It has nothing to do with Elias

[Frobby]

8 hours ago, wildcard said:

If posters want to talk sensibly  then I am fine with that.  I will post my thoughts.  Agree or disagree.  But I am not going to argue about it.

Your 1st paragraph sounds like you want to indict the son for the father's sins.  I give John a clean slate.

Elias has been clear.  He is focused on adding talent to help the team get to the playoffs.   IMO he is not going to spend much on anything that does not do that.  We shouldn't expect it IMO.

The Orioles have been as clear as can be since Elias took over about how the team was going to operate.   Nobody can say (or is saying) that the Orioles promised to spend money and then didn’t.    The only issue is whether they should be spending more now.   Personally I’d be in favor of some pitching/infield upgrades now.   But, I can also see the argument for maximizing the opportunities for the younger players who are here now, even though their failure rate is likely to be high.   Either way, we aren’t contenders next year, so I’m going to continue being patient, though it’s getting harder.   

[Sports Guy]

9 hours ago, wildcard said:

If posters want to talk sensibly  then I am fine with that.  I will post my thoughts.  Agree or disagree.  But I am not going to argue about it.

Your 1st paragraph sounds like you want to indict the son for the father's sins.  I give John a clean slate.

Elias has been clear.  He is focused on adding talent to help the team get to the playoffs.   IMO he is not going to spend much on anything that does not do that.  We shouldn't expect it IMO.

 

 

And you should give John a clean slate.

John, much like Elias, has been great for the minors leagues and the infrastructure of the organization.

But John has clearly prioritized saving money at the Ml level, to the extent that he has valued money saved over returns in trades.  
 

He doesn’t get a clean slate for that.  This goes back to the trades of 2018, when he was more involved at that point.  It’s clear that saving money at this level is a priority and it’s clear he doesn’t want to spend it.  Will that change?  Who knows.  I suspect he will be ok with small signings over the next few offseason but nothing big and nothing substantial.

[Sports Guy]

19 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The Orioles have been as clear as can be since Elias took over about how the team was going to operate.   Nobody can say (or is saying) that the Orioles promised to spend money and then didn’t.    The only issue is whether they should be spending more now.   Personally I’d be in favor of some pitching/infield upgrades now.   But, I can also see the argument for maximizing the opportunities for the younger players who are here now, even though their failure rate is likely to be high.   Either way, we aren’t contenders next year, so I’m going to continue being patient, though it’s getting harder.   

And btw, does maximizing opportunities for these guys mean jerking them Around, ala Lowther, last year?  Does it mean sending them down at the first sign of issues?  
 

Obviously 2021 was an odd year for pitchers because of the bs covid shutdown in 2020 but many of those guys still weren’t handled correctly and the idea that we are discussing the idea of giving them opportunities is funny since we just came off a year to do that and yet they didn’t do it for some and blocked others with guys like Harvey and Lopez.  
 

I mean, if you are going to do it, do it right.  Keep them in the rotation for 10-15 starts before you think about making a change.  They aren’t doing that.  

[Aristotelian]

13 hours ago, wildcard said:

There is a lot of negative on the board.  Lot of it is hard to read.   Fans come here for enjoyment.   Its not necessary to look at the negative side all the time.

There are positive things to talk about. If I look at the O's players that played last year half of them will be gone in 2022.   Some of the new ones should be better.   

Posters tear down the John Angelos and say all kinds of things with no proof at all.  He committed to the rebuild.  Hired a good guy to lead it.  Has supported international efforts, analytics, the new development system,  paying for high draft choices.   Losing can't be fun for him anymore than it is for the fans.   But some posters just want to trash him with no proof.

Elias is doing exactly what he said he would do.  We should be through he worst of the rebuild.  The tear down.  Now we get to see the fun part.  The build up.  The high draft choices and some young players that came in trades beginning their careers in the majors.  And it looks like their will be more and more for several years to come.

If posters want to be negative go post in a negative thread.  There are plenty of them.  When I start a positive  thread its for those that want to hear and think positively.  I like those posters to add to it and give their constructive input.  I wish the guys that want to be negative would go post in the other threads.   We ready don't need to read that stuff all the time.

I can probably find something positive to post most every day.  That is the way I want to spend my free time.  It is possible to be realistic and positive at the same time.  Yes, even about the O's.

The negativity is getting unbearable. I just don't get it. #1 Ranked farm system, international program starting from scratch, so much progress has been made. If people think the organization is so deeply rotten to the core makes you wonder why they don't just become Nats or Phillies fans. I think my new years resolution will be to stop engaging with people who have a predetermined narrative.

[fitzi22]

I actually don’t think the O’s are looking to be compete in 2022 or 2023.  The search for trade partners for Means, Mullins and probably Mancini (although he will be harder to move) coupled with the fact that the other 4 division teams are stacked with young talent right now makes me think Elias is eyeing a window for competition further down than we hope.  He can manipulate time for his best prospects, bank 2 more years of high draft picks and give the young international guys until 2025 to develop to not just build a good team but a great one.  It sucks because that puts us at 7 years of non competitive baseball but Elias is not here for 81-81 mediocrity.  He wants to build a champion and is more than willing to have 7 years of awful baseball for 3 years of true competitiveness.

Edited November 28, 2021 by fitzi22

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

The negativity is getting unbearable. I just don't get it. #1 Ranked farm system, international program starting from scratch, so much progress has been made. If people think the organization is so deeply rotten to the core makes you wonder why they don't just become Nats or Phillies fans. I think my new years resolution will be to stop engaging with people who have a predetermined narrative.

Why do You place so much value on the #1 farm system and do you think that could have been achieved by not being a horrible team for the last few years?  
 

Because I think they could have done it and had a better product on the field.

That being said, the negativity is based on what is happening next.  This is the offseason the team should be trying to win.  They should care now.  They don’t.  Winning less than 60 games in 2022 should be something every single person on here should be upset about.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, fitzi22 said:

I actually don’t think the O’s are looking to be compete in 2022 or 2023.  The search for trade partners for Means, Mullins and probably Mancini (although he will be harder to move) coupled with the fact that the other 4 division teams are stacked with young talent right now makes me think Elias is eyeing a window for competition further down than we hope.  He can manipulate time for his best prospects, bank 2 more years of high draft picks and give the young international guys until 2025 to develop to not just build a good team but a great one.  It sucks because that puts us at 7 years of non competitive baseball but Elias is not here for 81-81 mediocrity.  He wants to build a champion and is more than willing to have 7 years of awful baseball for 3 years of true competitiveness.

And you don’t have to keep losing to accomplish his goals.  Rebuilding for this long is a complete fallacy.  It is proven every year, but several teams, that you can win and draft well and sign international guys, develop prospects, play young kids, etc….NONE of this is done because of rebuilding.

[wildcard]

3 minutes ago, fitzi22 said:

I actually don’t think the O’s are looking to be compete in 2022 or 2023.  The search for trade partners for Means, Mullins are probably Mancini (although he will be harder to move) coupled with the fact that the other 4 division teams are stacked with young talent right now makes me think Elias is eyeing a window for competition further down than we hope.  He can manipulate time for his best prospects, bank 2 more years of high draft picks and give the young international guys until 2025 to develop to not just build a good team but a great one.  It sucks because that puts us at 7 years of non competitive baseball but Elias is not here for 81-81 mediocrity.  He wants to build a champion and is more than willing to have 7 years of awful baseball for 3 years of true competitiveness.

I don't think so.  Adley will be in year 4 by 2025.   Elias will move faster than that.

[fitzi22]

8 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I don't think so.  Adley will be in year 4 by 2025.   Elias will move faster than that.

Adley in year 1 or 2 will not allow enough time for the other prospects to be up and in their prime.  The hopes and dreams for the franchise on Adley and GRod alone is fools gold.  To compete in the East you need a full young team in their prime which would be 2024 or more likely 2025.

[JR Oriole]

14 minutes ago, fitzi22 said:

I actually don’t think the O’s are looking to be compete in 2022 or 2023.  The search for trade partners for Means, Mullins and probably Mancini (although he will be harder to move) coupled with the fact that the other 4 division teams are stacked with young talent right now makes me think Elias is eyeing a window for competition further down than we hope.  He can manipulate time for his best prospects, bank 2 more years of high draft picks and give the young international guys until 2025 to develop to not just build a good team but a great one.  It sucks because that puts us at 7 years of non competitive baseball but Elias is not here for 81-81 mediocrity.  He wants to build a champion and is more than willing to have 7 years of awful baseball for 3 years of true competitiveness.

I certainly hope we don't keep changing the timeline every year such that in 2025, we aren't here saying that we don't think the Os are looking to be competitive in 2026 or 2027.  At some point, I would think even the most patient of fans would reach tilt.  I would certainly sign up for the timeline above as long as what we did build is a champion.  That means winning the World Series.  Not showing up once every couple of decades in the ALCS and having our greatest moment in the last 25 years be an 8th inning go-ahead double in Game 2 of the ALDS.  In the process, it would be nice if we won more games each year and maybe did more to help keep Boston and New York out of the playoffs.  Doesn't seem to be too much to ask really.