Roch guesses OD lineup…Urias at SS

[Aristotelian]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I’m not contradicting myself at all.

There is nothing the organization is gaining long term, outside of a few early picks, that will be a result of losing on purpose.  
 

If you disagree with that, tell me where I’m incorrect.

Many people on the board as well as Elias himself have explained why the Orioles current strategy may maximize their chances of competing in the long term and why spending now could actually hurt our chances. We could try to explain the strategy for the umpteenth time but what good would that do? Or is obvious you want the explanation only to feed your rant.

[Sports Guy]

29 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Many people on the board as well as Elias himself have explained why the Orioles current strategy may maximize their chances of competing in the long term and why spending now could actually hurt our chances. We could try to explain the strategy for the umpteenth time but what good would that do? Or is obvious you want the explanation only to feed your rant.

And nothing in that strategy requires you to lose on purpose for several years.

This year the focus should be on putting a much better team on the field.  They seemingly don’t care about doing that..again.  No excuse for that.

 

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

I think Urias should be guaranteed at bats.  
 

I think both Mateo and Gutierrez shouldn’t be losing at bats to a guy like Odor.

Now, I do agree with Jammer that you give guys like that occasional days off. We all agree with that.

But I don’t buy that’s how Odor is used. 

I’m fine with a meritocracy.   Play well, you get at bats.  Of course, you need to show some patience with the younger guys and not bench them the minute they have a tough week.   

[forphase1]

43 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 

There is nothing the organization is gaining long term, outside of a few early picks, that will be a result of losing on purpose.  
 

If you disagree with that, tell me where I’m incorrect.

Many folks have given you valid reasons including larger draft pools, higher overall draft picks, and money not spent now may be available to spend when the time is right.   But since you don't agree with those points you discount them.  That's doesn't mean that they aren't valid,  good reasons.   Just doesn't satisfy you,  and clearly nothing will. 

[Sports Guy]

33 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Many folks have given you valid reasons including larger draft pools, higher overall draft picks, and money not spent now may be available to spend when the time is right.   But since you don't agree with those points you discount them.  That's doesn't mean that they aren't valid,  good reasons.   Just doesn't satisfy you,  and clearly nothing will. 

1) higher picks are not required to have a good farm system.  Also, I have said several times that is the one thing you gain.  You just have to read to see that.  And btw, they have gone a route of not taking the consensus BPA anyway.  

2). Again, the higher draft pool is tied up largely in the high pick.  That being said, you don’t need a big draft pool to build a good farm system and sign overslot guys.  Our third best prospect was the the 103rd player chosen.  We didn’t need to lose on purpose to get him.  Any team could have had him at any time and that is fairly typical every draft.  Their second best pitching prospect was a later first rounder.  

3). They have recently spent 170 million in payroll.  If they want to carry a 65-80M payroll right now, it doesn’t stop them from doing anything long term provided that they don’t get bogged down by a lot of poor, long term deals..something no one is asking for.

 

So please, tell me again what is so necessary about losing every year?  Tell me how this guarantees anything?  Hell, tell me how it gives us a better chance?  Because of a few high picks?  
 

As I have said countless times, I’m good with them tanking in 2019 and 2020.  I think a better effort should have been made for 2021, especially on the trade market but I can understand it some due to the circumstances surrounding 2020.  
 

But there is no excuse for 2022.  You can’t justify it.

You also can’t justify not using your payroll flexibility to take on contracts to obtain prospects(building a strong farm system/build up inventory is the #1 goal, right), if those deals are there, which they surely were after the 2020 season.  
 

This rebuilding is taking this long for one reason and one reason only..because ownership wants it to.  It has zero to do with winning long term because nothing being done now requires you to lose on purpose to contend long term.  It just doesn’t work that way.

It is proven year in and year out that you can build a great farm system while also winning games.  We see several teams do it every year, all the time.  
 

[forphase1]

Whatever.   As I said you don't view them as valid.   I, and others,  disagree.   It is what it is,  and no point in arguing it over again and again.   

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Whatever.   As I said you don't view them as valid.   I, and others,  disagree.   It is what it is,  and no point in arguing it over again and again.   

I don’t view them as valid because they are factually incorrect within the context of needing to lose on purpose to accomplish the goal of winning long term and building a very good organization.

 

[forphase1]

45 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But there is no excuse for 2022.  You can’t justify it.
 

Sure you can.   Not enough young talent has made it to the majors and performed well enough to really justify spending on free agents this year.   We were all hoping there would be more progress with the prospects, and that this would be the year that adding some key free agents would make sense.   But we simply aren't there yet.   Not worth spending any real money to go from a bad team to simply a poor team.   I know you disagree,  but it certainly CAN be justified,  just not to you. 

[forphase1]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t view them as valid because they are factually incorrect within the context of needing to lose on purpose to accomplish the goal of winning long term and building a very good organization.

 

Sure....

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Sure....

Good argument.  I realize you know you don’t have a leg to stand on but I would expect you to try..but alas, this is what you come up with.

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Sure you can.   Not enough young talent has made it to the majors and performed well enough to really justify spending on free agents this year.   We were all hoping there would be more progress with the prospects, and that this would be the year that adding some key free agents would make sense.   But we simply aren't there yet.   Not worth spending any real money to go from a bad team to simply a poor team.   I know you disagree,  but it certainly CAN be justified,  just not to you. 

Go back and look at the Cubs and Astros WS teams…tell me how many of those guys we’re home grown.

Here’s a hint…it wasn’t many.  You don’t need to sit around and wait for what we have to get good before you start improving.  Notice i have never asked for them to put a contender on the field in 2022.  I have never said to block a bunch of guys.  I am not talking about any of that.  
 

Im saying to build a better team in 2022 while keeping your focus on the plan.  You can do both.  You don’t need to lose on purpose for 4 or more years to get to where you want to go.

[forphase1]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Good argument.  I realize you know you don’t have a leg to stand on but I would expect you to try..but alas, this is what you come up with.

No, I realize when someone has their mind so made up that even the truth is ignored, it's pretty much pointless to continue the conversation.  If I want to talk to a brick wall, I've plenty here in my house, or I can call my ex-wife.  That's about as enjoyable as rehashing the same arguments time and time again with you.  

You win.  You are right.  There, happy now?

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

No, I realize when someone has their mind so made up that even the truth is ignored, it's pretty much pointless to continue the conversation.  If I want to talk to a brick wall, I've plenty here in my house, or I can call my ex-wife.  That's about as enjoyable as rehashing the same arguments time and time again with you.  

You win.  You are right.  There, happy now?

What truth are you speaking of that I’m ignoring?

Do you think the only way to build a good farm system is by drafting high and/or having a high draft pool?

Do you think that payroll flexibility can’t be had over the long term if you field a better team this year?  
 

 

 

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, forphase1 said:

Many folks have given you valid reasons including larger draft pools, higher overall draft picks, and money not spent now may be available to spend when the time is right.   But since you don't agree with those points you discount them.  That's doesn't mean that they aren't valid,  good reasons.   Just doesn't satisfy you,  and clearly nothing will. 

Whose the idiot who down noted this reasonable and polite post?   Oh, never mind.

[forphase1]

22 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

What truth are you speaking of that I’m ignoring?

Do you think the only way to build a good farm system is by drafting high and/or having a high draft pool?

Do you think that payroll flexibility can’t be had over the long term if you field a better team this year?  
 

*sigh* I don't know why I keep responding, but...

1) Truth that looking at other franchises that can win each year and still have a good farm system is not an apples to apples comparison as they have been established, while we were starting largely from scratch.  It takes time, and other factors like Covid have hindered our progress.  Truth that it doesn't make sense to spend money chasing 20 more wins to still just be another team with a losing record.  See #2 and #3 below, etc, etc.

2) Of course not.  But it's the best way giving our situation.  If we had deep international pipeline built up by years and years of relationships, then we wouldn't be as dependent upon the draft for our talent.  If we had gotten better returns for our trades, then the need to build the farm system wouldn't be an needed.  But we don't have that legacy international system, and by and large our trades didn't net enough talent that has shown to be worthwhile.  Clearly (at least for MOST folks) the higher you draft and the more money you have gives you chances and opportunities that otherwise may not be there.  Yes, we can all point to teams who do well picking in the 15-20 range each year, but generally yes, the higher you pick and the more money you have to spend the easier it is to rebuild the farm system.

3)  What I care about is when we are able to challenge for a playoff spot because the young talent is ready, we have both the payroll flexibility AND the funds to do whatever we need.  I know you think the money just grows on trees, and that if it's not spent now it just lines the owners pockets.  I don't.  It would not shock me in the least for Elias to be able to go to ownership and get approval to spend beyond the normal yearly means IF he watches the payroll now.  The Orioles is a business.  Many business owners I know budget not just for a year, but for years down the road where applicable and needed.  I'm not saying they are necessarily building a war chest, but I wouldn't be surprised if more savings today leads to more willingness to spend on down the road.  I'd MUCH rather us have money to spend to take us from an 80 win team to a 100 win team than to spend it now trying to go from 50 wins to 70 wins.  Combine that with the general long term flexibility, I don't see the point in signing much from the free agent pool this year.  Again, I know you disagree, so clearly I'm wrong.