Vavra/Henderson/Westburg vs. Odor/Mateo/Urias

[waroriole]

3 hours ago, Morgan423 said:

This is where I see Mateo in the end going forward, if he can't improve with the bat. 

An insanely valuable utility guy who still starts all over the place four, maybe five times a week, giving regular weekly or biweekly rest games to several starters, to keep everyone fresh. 

A guy with potentially elite defensive skills at several positions with some practice/repetition, and who will be constantly using that speed to cause headaches for other teams whenever he gets on... it does add quite a bit of value (that offensive stats tend not to look at) when opponents are, in practical terms, giving up a double a large percentage of the time they allow him to reach first base.      

Why would Mateo start anywhere but SS? He doesn’t need to play all over the place when he’s the best defensive SS. 

[Roll Tide]

33 minutes ago, SilverRocket said:

I have some worry about Mateo being the same defensively in a utility role. His defense last year was not at this level, which makes me think it's the everyday reps at the same position that have gotten him the consistency he has now. He's on pace for 2.5-3.5 WAR. Shortstops like that don't grow on trees. When his singles all become doubles, he's better offensively than his numbers look.

I would look to move Urias, or use him as the utility player since he can play three infield positions. I would feel a lot better about giving starters days off when he's the replacement instead of the Nevins of the team.

They keep talking about how good he would be if he could hit .240.

[casadeozo]

7 hours ago, Frobby said:

False.   Baseball has never changed, it’s a balance between what you contribute with your bat and your glove.  Bb-ref and Fangraphs both have Mateo in the 1.7-1.8 WAR range, above average for a major league starter at this point in the season.  That means his defensive contributions are outweighing his offensive failures.  So yes, being a Gold Glove defender can make up for being below average at the plate.   It’s a matter of just how many runs are being saved by the glove, and just how many runs are being lost with the bat. 

By the way, Rey Ordonez only had one season higher than 1.0 rWAR.   Mateo is contributing much more to the Orioles than Ordonez did to the Mets.  
 

In fairness this is the first real representation of Mateo as a full time starter and his defense has been an outlier compared to previous seasons. 

Who is a modern day comp to a defense first SS with comparable offensive productivity?

Mateo currently has the second most K's among SS's, and has the second worst OPS.

Edited July 17, 2022 by casadeozo

[Aristotelian]

19 minutes ago, casadeozo said:

In fairness this is the first real representation of Mateo as a full time starter and his defense has been an outlier compared to previous seasons. 

Who is a modern day comp to a defense first SS with comparable offensive productivity?

Mateo currently has the second most K's among SS's, and has the second worst OPS.

Adalberto Mondesi? 

[Frobby]

17 hours ago, casadeozo said:

In fairness this is the first real representation of Mateo as a full time starter and his defense has been an outlier compared to previous seasons. 

Who is a modern day comp to a defense first SS with comparable offensive productivity?

Mateo currently has the second most K's among SS's, and has the second worst OPS.

Nick Ahmed and Alcides Escobar are probably the best current comps.   Adam Everett was good comp about ten years ago.   

Look, my point is simple and consistent.   You judge a player by runs they contribute with their bat and take away with their glove.   The era doesn’t really matter.  It may change the baseline of what’s considered average production on each dimension.   But there always have been, and always will be, players who were legit major league starters despite being well below average offensively, because their above average defense made up for it.   This year, Jorge Mateo has been one of those players.   If his defense slips a bit and his offense doesn’t improve, then maybe he won’t be.   But right now, he is.  
 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Nick Ahmed and Alcides Escobar are probably the best current comps.   Adam Everett was good comp about ten years ago.   

Look, my point is simple and consistent.   You judge a player by runs they contribute with their bat and take away with their glove.   The era doesn’t really matter.  It may change the baseline of what’s considered average production on each dimension.   But there always have been, and always will be, players who were legit major league starters despite being well below average offensively, because their above average defense made up for it.   This year, Jorge Mateo has been one of those players.   If his defense slips a bit and his offense doesn’t improve, then maybe he won’t be.   But right now, he is.  
 

Mateo is 14th of 30 shortstops (min 40 games) in rWAR. Someone might quibble about the defensive runs saved (I think DRS has him more highly rated than OAA, or at least with more runs saved).  But, arguably, Mateo has been an above-average MLB shortstop so far this year.

On the bb-ref list he's been more valuable than Wander Franco, Isiah Kiner-Falefa, Bo Bichette Bobby Witt, Elvis Andrus, Jose Iglesias and Brandon Crawford. Among others. Statcast has Mateo's glove as +13 compared to Bobby Witt's.