Jackson Holliday spring training watch

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, banks703 said:

Pretty sure that I've stated consistently that I feel that he will improve and that he can probably play there but that he's never going to be their top defensive option at a premier defensive position, on a team that has demonstrated their prioritization of defense up the middle.

It's ok that you were wrong about something. I know that's difficult for you to accept.  

How was I wrong about something that is yet to be proven?  
 

And you have definitely hinted that he won’t be a good option at SS now or in the future…and that is with or without Gunnar or Ortiz.

Edited February 21 by Sports Guy

[banks703]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

This is true..for 2024. We will see if this is true beyond that.

There is more to SS than just arm strength.  I doubt Holliday will ever have Gunnar’s arm strength, no matter how much he works on it. 

Uh huh... see all of my posts about the more to SS than just arm strength. It's ok.. keep circling this. If the O's end up moving on from Gunnar in five or six years and they slide JH over to SS then, I'm sure that you will come back and point to how you predicted him as a ML SS in 2024. Good fer you, bud. 

 

 

[banks703]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

How was I wrong about something that is yet to be proven?  
 

And you have definitely hinted that he won’t be a good option at SS now or in the future…and that is with or without Gunnar or Ortiz.

You're just moving goal posts at this point. I have 100% stated and will continue to state that he is not going to be a good defender at SS.. because he will not be a good defender at SS. National publications are beginning to write more about his defensive limitations, so it isn't just me that sees it. He is better suited for 2B and I don't rule out a move to the OF. Gunnar, Joey and Jorge were/are far superior defenders to him right now and unless something happens to Gunnar, he will continue to pace JH on the defensive side.

There's nothing wrong with moving JH to 2B. I've compared that combo up the middle to Seager and Semien but honestly I see more Cano in JH than Semien and I think we should be disappointed if JH is only Marcus Semien. 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, banks703 said:

You're just moving goal posts at this point. I have 100% stated and will continue to state that he is not going to be a good defender at SS.. because he will not be a good defender at SS. National publications are beginning to write more about his defensive limitations, so it isn't just me that sees it. He is better suited for 2B and I don't rule out a move to the OF. Gunnar, Joey and Jorge were/are far superior defenders to him right now and unless something happens to Gunnar, he will continue to pace JH on the defensive side.

There's nothing wrong with moving JH to 2B. I've compared that combo up the middle to Seager and Semien but honestly I see more Cano in JH than Semien and I think we should be disappointed if JH is only Marcus Semien. 

Right..which is exactly what I just said. You don’t think he will be a good ML SS long term. Zero people agree with that.

People agree that the arm isnt SS quality right now. They do believe the range, hands, etc..are ML quality. 
 

So yea, your stance is you alone, which was and is my point. 

[Can_of_corn]

I don't get why folks seem so certain he can improve significantly on defense.

Defense peaks early and he's had the absolute best coaching his whole life.

This might be who he is.

 

[banks703]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I don't get why folks seem so certain he can improve significantly on defense.

Defense peaks early and he's had the absolute best coaching his whole life.

This might be who he is.

 

[banks703]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Right..which is exactly what I just said. You don’t think he will be a good ML SS long term. Zero people agree with that.

People agree that the arm isnt SS quality right now. They do believe the range, hands, etc..are ML quality. 
 

So yea, your stance is you alone, which was and is my point. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't get why folks seem so certain he can improve significantly on defense.

Defense peaks early and he's had the absolute best coaching his whole life.

This might be who he is.

 

It might be. It’s always possible. Defense is largely about effort in many ways. You have to work at it and want to work at it. 

If he doesn’t do that, this is who he will be. If he does work at it, he will get better.

Im sure he understands that the arm is currently lacking. Im sure his father can see it and it’s something they worked on and will continue to work on. He has the foundation outside of that to be really good, according to basically everyone.

His incentive is that the payday will be larger long term as a SS than a second baseman. 

So, it’s up to him on whether he wants to get better or not.

A few years ago, most didn’t believe Gunnar could be a SS. Those people were proven to be incorrect in short time. I’m guessing that Gunnar worked hard at it and wanted to become better. 
 

My personal assumption about Holliday is that he will want to work hard to get better. That may be a wrong assumption but it is my belief.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Show me the national people who believe he will never be a long term answer at SS.  

[LTO's]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't get why folks seem so certain he can improve significantly on defense.

Defense peaks early and he's had the absolute best coaching his whole life.

This might be who he is.

 

Defense doesn't peak at age 19. 

Also, who is reporting that he needs to improve "significantly" on defense? He wouldn't be the #1 overall prospect if that was the case. 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, LTO's said:

Defense doesn't peak at age 19. 

Also, who is reporting that he needs to improve "significantly" on defense? He wouldn't be the #1 overall prospect if that was the case. 

Exactly right. Like all young players, I’m sure he has some things to “clean up” but he the question mark about his defense isn’t range or hands or anything like that..it’s his arm.  He needs to improve the arm strength and get the velo on the throws up. 
 

I personally don’t think he would be the #1 prospect if people doubted he could be a ML SS. 

[banks703]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It might be. It’s always possible. Defense is largely about effort in many ways. You have to work at it and want to work at it. 

If he doesn’t do that, this is who he will be. If he does work at it, he will get better.

Im sure he understands that the arm is currently lacking. Im sure his father can see it and it’s something they worked on and will continue to work on. He has the foundation outside of that to be really good, according to basically everyone.

His incentive is that the payday will be larger long term as a SS than a second baseman. 

So, it’s up to him on whether he wants to get better or not.

A few years ago, most didn’t believe Gunnar could be a SS. Those people were proven to be incorrect in short time. I’m guessing that Gunnar worked hard at it and wanted to become better. 
 

My personal assumption about Holliday is that he will want to work hard to get better. That may be a wrong assumption but it is my belief.

First.. most is not accurate as it relates to those who questioned Gunnar sticking at SS. There were concerns but it was hardly a consensus. Secondly, the questions on Gunnar as a SS were not about his skill/talent as a defender. The two main concerns were whether he could be more consistent to occupy the most premier infield position for you and if he would outgrow SS. There weren't questions around his arm, his ability to make plays in the hole, his mechanics fielding a groundball, etc. etc. so that statement above is quite misleading. 

Gunnar may outgrow SS. At 22 he's 6'4ish and probably every bit of 215 lbs, if not bigger. As he matures physically he very well could add 15 lbs of muscle without the extended effort that would be required of someone like EBJ to add the same amount. But just as you point that JH's incentive to improve as a SS is the payday, Gunnar has that same incentive and he's already night and day better as a defender than JH and was two years ago at the same age as JH. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, LTO's said:

Defense doesn't peak at age 19. 

Also, who is reporting that he needs to improve "significantly" on defense? He wouldn't be the #1 overall prospect if that was the case. 

What was Manny's best year on defense?  2013?  That would have been his age 20 season.

As for significant, it's a nebulous term.  Obviously he isn't a hack right now but to go from where he is now to clearly better than the incumbent I think would be a significant change.  I also wouldn't move Gunnar unless Jackson was clearly better.

[banks703]

11 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Show me the national people who believe he will never be a long term answer at SS.  

They're there. Go look for yourself. I'm not your assistant. 

[Just Regular]

A good candidate for baseball's firstest world problem is having the Gunnar Henderson-Jackson Holliday and Adley Rutschman-Samuel Basallo stacks on the depth chart.

Its possible what baseball has in store is for two of the guys to develop their skills as highly as they can at 2B/1B.

I know Fangraphs Longenhagen, apart from his published comments on Holliday, also believes on the Gunnar side he's the Orioles shortstop answer as I got to pose that question to him in a panel during the AFL.

Shortstop is such a load biomechanically I wouldn't be shocked in ~6 years when Milwaukee's ready to non-tender Joey Ortiz if the Orioles looked for some Mike Bordick type so Gunnar/Holliday nearing 30 can both take better aim at 10000 PA.