Cal thinks Holiday moved to fast through the system

[O's84]

30 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

When he can dunk from the free throw line, it will be time to promote him.

Quick, somebody post a picture of MJ dunking from the FT line with Holiday's head photoshopped on top.

Edited May 18 by O's84

[Too Tall]

A good part of this board - me included - wanted/thought J H would be on the team for the first game of the year. Then, there was a push for a call up with some thinking Elias was trying to delay to extend control. Now there is second guessing re why the poor start that led to a demotion. This will be a never-ending story.

I don't view Cal any differently than before he became a MINORITY owner. Which is to say, I really don't look to Cal for prospect evaluations. Tony and some on this site - yes. Cal - no.  I also bet in retrospect however, Elias & Co. would agree with Cal's take. Heck, I agree with it. Cal just needs to learn he is now more than just an Oriole Hall of Fame Icon. Things he says can be taken a lot of different ways depending on the listener. I think this interview is a nothing burger in the sceme of things with an eye/ear bent toward future interviews to see if a trend develops. I doubt seriously one does!

[DrungoHazewood]

There's this idea that prospects are rushed nowadays, not like back when everything was good and right with the world and everybody spent a year or two at each level finely honing their craft before getting called up.

That's a total fiction. It's always been the case that players were promoted when they were better than the folks ahead of them. And in the past that was often much more quickly than today. A few years before Cal was drafted David Clyde made 18 starts for the Rangers the year he graduated from high school at the age of 18. Al Kaline never played a minute in the minors, neither did Sandy Koufax, or Bob Horner. Griffey Jr and ARod had fewer minor league PAs than Holliday. Robin Yount was starting at short almost the whole year for the Brewers at 18, despite OPSing .622. Ben McDonald had nine minor league innings under his belt when the O's called him up. Babe Ruth played 46 minor league games. Mantle was in the majors at 19, after just 40 games in AAA.

Holliday has a minor league OPS of .932, mostly as a teenager facing much older competition. I don't really care what Cal says, the idea he was rushed is hindsight heavily flavored by a poor week-and-a-half worth of ABs. He'll be back shortly and he'll be fine.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, O's84 said:

Quick, somebody post a picture of MJ dunking from the FT line with Holiday's head photoshopped on top.

Has to be from game footage.  Good like finding a shot of Wilt.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 minutes ago, Too Tall said:

I also bet in retrospect however, Elias & Co. would agree with Cal's take. Heck, I agree with it. Cal just needs to learn he is now more than just an Oriole Hall of Fame Icon. Things he says can be taken a lot of different ways depending on the listener. I think this interview is a nothing burger in the sceme of things with an eye/ear bent toward future interviews to see if a trend develops. I doubt seriously one does!

I would hope they have enough confidence and faith in their evaluations to not throw them out the window when someone shuffles a bit in their first 10 MLB games. If not for service time considerations I'm confident Holliday makes the team out of spring training and is likely still on the roster.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

There's this idea that prospects are rushed nowadays, not like back when everything was good and right with the world and everybody spent a year or two at each level finely honing their craft before getting called up.

That's a total fiction. It's always been the case that players were promoted when they were better than the folks ahead of them. And in the past that was often much more quickly than today. A few years before Cal was drafted David Clyde made 18 starts for the Rangers the year he graduated from high school at the age of 18. Al Kaline never played a minute in the minors, neither did Sandy Koufax, or Bob Horner. Griffey Jr and ARod had fewer minor league PAs than Holliday. Robin Yount was starting at short almost the whole year for the Brewers at 18, despite OPSing .622. Ben McDonald had nine minor league innings under his belt when the O's called him up. Babe Ruth played 46 minor league games. Mantle was in the majors at 19, after just 40 games in AAA.

Holliday has a minor league OPS of .932, mostly as a teenager facing much older competition. I don't really care what Cal says, the idea he was rushed is hindsight heavily flavored by a poor week-and-a-half worth of ABs. He'll be back shortly and he'll be fine.

Feller went 5-3 with 11k/9 at 17.

[DrungoHazewood]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Feller went 5-3 with 11k/9 at 17.

His summer job between his junior and senior years in high school was ace pitcher for the Cleveland Indians.

[Can_of_corn]

Just checked and the youngest listed person for the Negro Leagues was 17.  Dennis Biddle.

[Moose Milligan]

I…read the thread I just don’t care.

He’ll be fine, eventually. Cal’s opinion is fine. 

Edited May 18 by Moose Milligan

[Jim'sKid26]

The late 1970s/early 1980s in the minor leagues is the experience on which Cal is basing his assessment. I sense a bit of primacy bias here. There have been many recent articles talking about how different AAA is now compared to the past. I'm not certain I find his opinion to be all that valuable in this circumstance.

Now, @Tony-OH; your opinion on whether you think Jackson was promoted too quickly would be interesting to me. 

Edited May 18 by Jim'sKid26

[DrungoHazewood]

Hall of Famer John Ward had pitched 107 games and 921 innings before he turned 20. Possibly a contributing factor to him moving to the field at the age of 24.

At 19 Amos Rusie went 29-34, 2.56 with 67 games, 62 starts, 56 complete games, 548 innings and led the league with both 289 walks and 341 strikeouts.

The Cubs' Phil Cavarretta had 1145 MLB plate appearances as a teenager. Mel Ott hit .318/.382/.479 in 741 PAs as a teenager.

If Ty Cobb had just gotten a reasonable amount of minor league seasoning (he was first up for 165 PAs at 18) maybe he'd have had a little better career.

[DrungoHazewood]

3 minutes ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

The late 1970s/early 1980s in the minor leagues is the experience on which Cal is basing his assessment. I sense a bit of primacy bias here. There have been many recent articles talking about how different AAA is now compared to the past. I'm not certain I find his opinion to be all that valuable in this circumstance.

I don't believe that AAA is much different than it's ever been.

And if Cal is relying on his 1970-80s experiences he clearly forgot about Yount, Clyde, Gooden, Blyleven, Trammell, Palmer, Jack Clark, Greg Luzinski, Vida Blue, Rick Dempsey, Ted Simmons, Bobby Murcer, Catfish Hunter, Alfredo Griffin, Darrell Porter, Oscar Gamble, Cesar Cedeno, Jose Oquendo, etc, who were all in the majors as teenagers.

[ChosenOne21]

Cal said "maybe" Jackson came to the majors too soon. He mostly blamed "nerves" for Jackson's poor performance.

I think most everyone on the boards has said as much. This doesn't come off as overstepping to me.

[Just Regular]

If Cal could have done like Kaline and got the ~1900 minor league PA he took in the Show, he'd be a strong 2nd to Pete Rose on the plate appearances list.

Kiko Garcia did go Rick Dempsey nuts in the 1979 World Series, except his team lost.

Ripken v. Kiko in the '79 postseason would be kind of like Holliday v. Mateo for the '24 postseason.

Any 7 games, I am confident Jorge Mateo can do anything Kiko Garcia or Rick Dempsey could.

[Jim'sKid26]

 

37 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I don't believe that AAA is much different than it's ever been.

And if Cal is relying on his 1970-80s experiences he clearly forgot about Yount, Clyde, Gooden, Blyleven, Trammell, Palmer, Jack Clark, Greg Luzinski, Vida Blue, Rick Dempsey, Ted Simmons, Bobby Murcer, Catfish Hunter, Alfredo Griffin, Darrell Porter, Oscar Gamble, Cesar Cedeno, Jose Oquendo, etc, who were all in the majors as teenagers.

"I beg to differ, sir!"

The robot strike zone has been an issue that was highlighted as a new recent adjustment hitters have to make to deal with the ever changing strike zones of the MLB umps. 

The issues with advanced scouting and its impact on young hitters has also been pointed out. Guy come up now and have had nearly every tendency and swing inefficiency well described and documented from their early minor league games. Rhapsodo and trackman were never seen in MiLB parks in the eighties. Now they are ubiquitous. 

Then there is the profound difference in the quality and velocity of pitching. Guys weren't throwing 104 mph FB in the MLB in 1982. Nor, for that matter, were they throwing 95 mph "splinters." The recent NY Times article that was posted earlier in the thread discusses this. 

The game has fundamentally changed since the eighties. 

Edited May 18 by Jim'sKid26