Coaching, coaching, coaching

[Sports Guy]

Been talking a lot about this with some friends the last few days...Instead of posting this in the NCAA thread, I figured I would post this in this thread since their has been so much angst towards Gary over the years.

Since MD won their title, they have the third most ACC wins...Trailing Duke and UNC.

Now, in those years, how many times has MD had top 3 talent? Hell, top 5? They aren't one of the top 5 most talented teams in the ACC THIS year and they won 13 games...Why? GARY WILLIAMS.

Look at the coaches in the conference...Purnell, Gaudio, Hamilton, Lowe, etc...They are all pretty bad coaches that don't do enough with their teams and programs...Yes, Purnell's teams win 20 games but they don't win in the tourney and they are far too inconsistent.

I like Paul Hewitt and think he is a decent coach but he is another guy that always has good talent but doesn't seem to do quite enough with it.

Seth Greenburg is a good coach and does a good job with less talent than most but his teams also seem to lose some games they shouldn't lose and that ends up costing them a tourney appearance. Al Skinner is a pretty good coach but not at the level of the top 3.

When I watch these tourney games, coaching becomes even more obvious...The longer timeouts gives coaches more time to game plan on the fly.

I don't think many MD fans understand how lucky they are to have Gary.

Now, is Gary as good a recruiter as many of the coaches? No, he isn't...But Gary also has a history of doing more with less, so that mark against him only means so much.

Of all the major college and pro sports, I don't think coaching is more important than it is in college basketball.

[Lucky Jim]

Been talking a lot about this with some friends the last few days...Instead of posting this in the NCAA thread, I figured I would post this in this thread since their has been so much angst towards Gary over the years.

Since MD won their title, they have the third most ACC wins...Trailing Duke and UNC.

Now, in those years, how many times has MD had top 3 talent? Hell, top 5? They aren't one of the top 5 most talented teams in the ACC THIS year and they won 13 games...Why? GARY WILLIAMS.

Look at the coaches in the conference...Purnell, Gaudio, Hamilton, Lowe, etc...They are all pretty bad coaches that don't do enough with their teams and programs...Yes, Purnell's teams win 20 games but they don't win in the tourney and they are far too inconsistent.

I like Paul Hewitt and think he is a decent coach but he is another guy that always has good talent but doesn't seem to do quite enough with it.

Seth Greenburg is a good coach and does a good job with less talent than most but his teams also seem to lose some games they shouldn't lose and that ends up costing them a tourney appearance. Al Skinner is a pretty good coach but not at the level of the top 3.

When I watch these tourney games, coaching becomes even more obvious...The longer timeouts gives coaches more time to game plan on the fly.

I don't think many MD fans understand how lucky they are to have Gary.

Now, is Gary as good a recruiter as many of the coaches? No, he isn't...But Gary also has a history of doing more with less, so that mark against him only means so much.

Of all the major college and pro sports, I don't think coaching is more important than it is in college basketball.

You make some good points. I would have no problem with the recent results if it was born of some kind of institutional integrity - but the recent spate of ill-advised signings (and releases), the poor graduation rates, the public feuding, etc. is off-putting.

I like Gary. And respect him deeply. But if he's not going to recruit (and it appears he's trying to upgrade there), then he needs to make sure he gets other things right. Like graduating guys. And not trying to sign Tyree Evans and Bobby Maze. And not publicly feuding with Yow.

Otherwise, I love everything about him. Including his sweaty, spasmodic sideline work.

[Sports Guy]

You make some good points. I would have no problem with the recent results if it was born of some kind of institutional integrity - but the recent spate of ill-advised signings (and releases), the poor graduation rates, the public feuding, etc. is off-putting.

I like Gary. And respect him deeply. But if he's not going to recruit (and it appears he's trying to upgrade there), then he needs to make sure he gets other things right. Like graduating guys. And not trying to sign Tyree Evans and Bobby Maze. And not publicly feuding with Yow.

Otherwise, I love everything about him. Including his sweaty, spasmodic sideline work.

You do know that grad rates are the biggest bs way to judge a coach, right? They are meaningless.

[Lucky Jim]

You do know that grad rates are the biggest bs way to judge a coach, right? They are meaningless.

I know that the numbers used are not accurate. I also know that the Terps have habitually been terrible at this. Excuses aside, and flawed metric aside, the Terps have been abysmal on the academic side. Heck, someone has yet to explain the Chris McCray debacle to me.

[PaulBako]

And not publicly feuding with Yow.

Well, nobody likes Yow except Brenda.

[Lucky Jim]

Well, nobody likes Yow except Brenda.

Doesn't mean you drag dirty laundry into the public sphere.

[Sports Guy]

I know that the numbers used are not accurate. I also know that the Terps have habitually been terrible at this. Excuses aside, and flawed metric aside, the Terps have been abysmal on the academic side. Heck, someone has yet to explain the Chris McCray debacle to me.

Who cares about the academic side?

I hate this argument...Its so freaking stupid.(and I am not trying to attack you LJ...its an argument said everywhere)

Let's use some examples.

Let's say a player leaves early and goes and plays in Europe...he is over seas, making good money, playing a game. Was college a success? Of course it was...What is the point of college..to prepare you for a job, for life, etc...If that is what happens, whether it means leaving at your freshman year or senior year, then the mission is still accomplished.

Now, let's say that player leaves and comes back 5 years later and finishes his degree...The grad rates don't even take that into consideration...its all about the here and now...Gary gets no "help" from that..and really, its not about that because the grad rates look at what you did 4 or 5 years ago, not the current situation.

You talk about recruiting and how Gary needs to improve it...By improving that, what does that mean? Getting better talent, right?

Well, what if that better talent leaves early but comes in and wins games...Are you going to complain about the grad rates then?

If Jordan Williams leaves after his junior year to go pro, are you going to say that was terrible by Gary for bringing him in and hurting his grad rates or are you going to be happy that you had one of the better big men in the country on your team for 3 years?

In other words, you are being a hypocrit...You want it both ways and it doesn't work that way in this game.

So, you need to decide what is important to you...For me, I don't care if one player graduates...i care about bringing in talent and winning games. That's all that is important. If gary had 100% grad rates every year but had 12-18 teams every year, would you be cool with keeping him? No, of course you wouldn't.

As a writer recently said....Charlie Weis won the national championship for grad rates...Look where he is now.

Its just another thing for people to use as ammo to jump on someone they don't want around...its not a valid thing to ever even mention, much less use it to grade a coach.

[Sports Guy]

Doesn't mean you drag dirty laundry into the public sphere.

Debbie Yow has never seemed to comprehend just how important Gary is to that university.

[Lucky Jim]

Who cares about the academic side?

I hate this argument...Its so freaking stupid.(and I am not trying to attack you LJ...its an argument said everywhere)

Let's use some examples.

Let's say a player leaves early and goes and plays in Europe...he is over seas, making good money, playing a game. Was college a success? Of course it was...What is the point of college..to prepare you for a job, for life, etc...If that is what happens, whether it means leaving at your freshman year or senior year, then the mission is still accomplished.

Now, let's say that player leaves and comes back 5 years later and finishes his degree...The grad rates don't even take that into consideration...its all about the here and now...Gary gets no "help" from that..and really, its not about that because the grad rates look at what you did 4 or 5 years ago, not the current situation.

You talk about recruiting and how Gary needs to improve it...By improving that, what does that mean? Getting better talent, right?

Well, what if that better talent leaves early but comes in and wins games...Are you going to complain about the grad rates then?

If Jordan Williams leaves after his junior year to go pro, are you going to say that was terrible by Gary for bringing him in and hurting his grad rates or are you going to be happy that you had one of the better big men in the country on your team for 3 years?

In others, you are being a hypocrit...You want it both ways and it doesn't work that way in this game.

So, you need to decide what is important to you...For me, I don't care if one player graduates...i care about bringing in talent and winning games. That's all that is important.

As a writer recently said....Charlie Weis won the national championship for grad rates...Look where he is now.

Its just another thing for people to use as ammo to jump on someone they don't want around...its not a valid thing to ever even mention, much less use it to grade a coach.

What player has left early to go overseas? What player has left early at all? We're talking about graduation of guys who spent four (and even five) years here.

I think this has gotten better - and that's the true flaw with the numbers they use, they don't take into account recent events. But my point was that we were clearly lacking on the academic side for a while. And that's inexcusable if you're going to run a program the "right" way.

I disagree that academics mean nothing. They're a component of the sport, whether absurd or not. And I want a team that graduates its players at a non-embarrassing rate. That's my preference.

You do this thing - and I'm not sure why - where you take some extreme in every argument, apply it to the opposition, and then act like it's crazy. Well, it would be crazy, if anyone actually thought that the Terps should graduate every player. I never said that Gary has to graduate everyone. I said only that he needs to improve this aspect of the team - especially if he's not going to recruit guys who can carry the team to the Final Four. The last player to leave early were Wilcox and Gilcrist. But a whole litany of guys have stayed the entire time, failed to graduate, and not gone to the NBA. I don't think Drew Nicholas playing in Europe is a great excuse for him not graduating. He's making money, and that's great. But what's that have to do with graduating? I've always said that I think the focus on graduation in college basketball is a bit racist - we don't worry about that with sports dominated by white players (baseball). That said, it doesn't mean that graduation rates are irrelevant. And it sucks to be the worst at it.

The point is that Maryland hasn't HAD blue-chip talent and yet STILL doesn't graduate its players. There's no excuse for that.

[Sports Guy]

What player has left early to go overseas? What player has left early at all? We're talking about graduation of guys who spent four (and even five) years here.

I think this has gotten better - and that's the true flaw with the numbers they use, they don't take into account recent events. But my point was that we were clearly lacking on the academic side for a while. And that's inexcusable if you're going to run a program the "right" way.

I disagree that academics mean nothing. They're a component of the sport, whether absurd or not. And I want a team that graduates its players at a non-embarrassing rate. That's my preference.

You do this thing - and I'm not sure why - where you take some extreme in every argument, apply it to the opposition, and then act like it's crazy. Well, it would be crazy. If anyone thought. I never said that Gary has to graduate everyone. I said only that he needs to improve this aspect of the team - especially if he's not going to recruit guys who can carry the team to the Final Four.

The point is that Maryland hasn't HAD blue-chip talent and yet STILL doesn't graduate its players. There's no excuse for that.

Gilchrist left school and went to Europe.

Sorry but you are wrong...Academics are meaningless...You can sit there and pretend that these guys go to school to study but that is really naive.

Yes, there will be some, who have no aspirations of going pro anywhere but most of them do and most of them will do what it takes.

If I am not mistaken, the grad rates also take into account how long it takes you to get a degree...So, if it takes 5 years instead of 4, that is a mark against the coach.

And what about the kids that play through their senior year and decide that playing more and going to camps is more important than school and they leave their last semester to work on their games? That happens too. They just drop out.

None of this is the coaches fault.

It is a meaningless thing to put on the coaches. Wins and losses...That's all that is important.

[Sports Guy]

What player has left early to go overseas? What player has left early at all? We're talking about graduation of guys who spent four (and even five) years here.

I think this has gotten better - and that's the true flaw with the numbers they use, they don't take into account recent events. But my point was that we were clearly lacking on the academic side for a while. And that's inexcusable if you're going to run a program the "right" way.

I disagree that academics mean nothing. They're a component of the sport, whether absurd or not. And I want a team that graduates its players at a non-embarrassing rate. That's my preference.

You do this thing - and I'm not sure why - where you take some extreme in every argument, apply it to the opposition, and then act like it's crazy. Well, it would be crazy, if anyone actually thought that the Terps should graduate every player. I never said that Gary has to graduate everyone. I said only that he needs to improve this aspect of the team - especially if he's not going to recruit guys who can carry the team to the Final Four. The last player to leave early were Wilcox and Gilcrist. But a whole litany of guys have stayed the entire time, failed to graduate, and not gone to the NBA. I don't think Drew Nicholas playing in Europe is a great excuse for him not graduating. He's making money, and that's great. But what's that have to do with graduating? I've always said that I think the focus on graduation in college basketball is a bit racist - we don't worry about that with sports dominated by white players (baseball). That said, it doesn't mean that graduation rates are irrelevant. And it sucks to be the worst at it.

The point is that Maryland hasn't HAD blue-chip talent and yet STILL doesn't graduate its players. There's no excuse for that.

He is making like 700K a year and gets to play a sport for a living...That's plenty of reason to not graduate.

The fact that he didn't isn't a reflection on Gary.

[Lucky Jim]

Gilchrist left school and went to Europe.

Sorry but you are wrong.

This is all I really need to read. Thanks for the chat.

[Sports Guy]

This is all I really need to read. Thanks for the chat.

Ahhh, the rshack way of arguing. Brilliant!

[AgentOrange]

What player has left early to go overseas? What player has left early at all? We're talking about graduation of guys who spent four (and even five) years here.

I think this has gotten better - and that's the true flaw with the numbers they use, they don't take into account recent events. But my point was that we were clearly lacking on the academic side for a while. And that's inexcusable if you're going to run a program the "right" way.

I disagree that academics mean nothing. They're a component of the sport, whether absurd or not. And I want a team that graduates its players at a non-embarrassing rate. That's my preference.

You do this thing - and I'm not sure why - where you take some extreme in every argument, apply it to the opposition, and then act like it's crazy. Well, it would be crazy, if anyone actually thought that the Terps should graduate every player. I never said that Gary has to graduate everyone. I said only that he needs to improve this aspect of the team - especially if he's not going to recruit guys who can carry the team to the Final Four. The last player to leave early were Wilcox and Gilcrist. But a whole litany of guys have stayed the entire time, failed to graduate, and not gone to the NBA. I don't think Drew Nicholas playing in Europe is a great excuse for him not graduating. He's making money, and that's great. But what's that have to do with graduating? I've always said that I think the focus on graduation in college basketball is a bit racist - we don't worry about that with sports dominated by white players (baseball). That said, it doesn't mean that graduation rates are irrelevant. And it sucks to be the worst at it.

The point is that Maryland hasn't HAD blue-chip talent and yet STILL doesn't graduate its players. There's no excuse for that.

What is the point of graduating?

[Sports Guy]

What is the point of graduating?

To make more money and make it easier to get a job, right?