MacPhail: "We've taken a giant step backwards."

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I know the Orioles said this time our prospects are better because other people say so. I think Cabrera,Loewen, Penn and Olson are the staff we want as the future to compete in the AL East. I at least see some hope with Wieters and Matusz. Hopefully they become elite players like Cano has become. It never seems our players take the next step to stardom.

I certainly feels that way. The worst part is that this time felt different all the way through last season (despite the loosing) up until this season started and all of a sudden Jones falls off the table (although warning signs existed), Pie is never healthy (maybe not all of a sudden), Bergessen can't sink the ball, Riemold is a shadow of the player that came up last year (and I give him 1/2 of a pass due to his recovery from surgery), Wieters has not developed as fast as was expected, etc. It has not helped that the vets have been either disappointing or not otherworldly, as they would have to be to pick up the bad play from the youngins. Matusz is exempt and Wieters could still become that player that was promised but dang it feels bleak right now.

[msporter4]

And that makes that trade worse in absolutely no possible way.

That trade is still an amazing trade, and any opinion otherwise is just hindsight. We got a phenomenal amount of talent in return for a guy who pitched 160 innings over the next two years.

It sucks that Jones has taken a step back from where he started last year, but that trade still is an amazing trade. Tillman is still a fantastic prospect with a huge future. Bell still has a lot of upside. Sherrill helped us out over the last two years almost as much as Bedard helped the M's.

While it still might be an amazing trade. Everyone across the board was lambasting the M's for making this deal and depleting their resources. People were wondering how they would ever rebound. Yet, 2 years later and they have rebounded and are competing. We were hoping to get a core from this trade, something to build around.

Yet here we are, stuck in the same storyline that has been written over and over again for the past 13 years.

[ledzepp8]

He was not that great at signing free agents in Chicago. Also drafted poorly their for years.You can look at his record for twelve years.

God, I love to hear people on here talk about MacPhail's time in Chicago. It's like the guy held every damn position with that team all simultaneously.

[doctorbj]

I thought at the beginning of the year we all were overrating our players, as fans are apt to do, and to a degree I was one of them. No one could foresee the injuries and mass team collapse on the offensive side, but.....

The only real minor league position player candidates within the system for the next several years are Bell and Snyder, neither of whom will ever be a real part of the answer IMHO.

Reimhold was a pleasant surprise to me, but will he ever be more than an average to somewhat above average major leaguer.

Given that we seem unwilling to trade from our pitching surplus in a package, or that any of the players constantly listed as needing to be traded are not really going to be attractive to anyone, we are left with only free agents as an option in the next couple of years.

Now either MacPhail is holding to an unrealistic view - that we will get to near contender status from within and then we'll sign players

OR-

Angelos has the purse strings firmly closed and no matter what MASN profit etc yields, it won't change.

If so, let me ask the question that all of the above leads to:

If Angelos were to sell the team, does anyone believe that new ownership would have the funds to go out and sign these players that so many feel we will need?

Please give me a scenario that at least would make me hope for the future. I'm 66 and would like to go happily baseball-wise.

Barry

[Arthur_Bryant]

While it still might be an amazing trade. Everyone across the board was lambasting the M's for making this deal and depleting their resources. People were wondering how they would ever rebound. Yet, 2 years later and they have rebounded and are competing. We were hoping to get a core from this trade, something to build around.

Yet here we are, stuck in the same storyline that has been written over and over again for the past 13 years.

This is true. It also has nothing to do with the O's and everything to do with the Mariners having hired a dynamic GM, and playing in a division that doesn't have the Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays..

[Going Underground]

God, I love to hear people on here talk about MacPhail's time in Chicago. It's like the guy held every damn position with that team all simultaneously.

Well he did fire three GM's including himself. He was above the GM position so he was in charge.

[brooksie05]

Perhaps AM can help us far more as the commish rather than our President?

[LookinUp]

I was ecstatic by these trades when they happened, but 2 years later I see they weren't nearly as great as I'd hoped.... Time for Plan B! Ooop...we don't have a plan B....

Pie isn't a Plan B?

Matusz, Arrieta, Britton, Erbe, Bergy, DHer, Hobgood et al aren't Plan Bs?

Luis Lebron isn't a Plan B?

Honestly, I think I understand the reaction in this thread, and I agree that AM has to do something legit to take the next step, but 4-18 doesn't invalidate all of the talent on this team. I'd rather have 4-18 and this roster than 11-11 and any roster we've had in the last 10 years.

IMO, this team needs new coaching. It needs some legit bats, and by this I mean some professional hitters, not just "premium" players. I'm thinking of 1-2 Millwood types from the plate who can lead by example and tutor the young hitters on approaches and strategies beyond what the hitting coach may do. The best way to do this would be to dump Scott and use DH for that position.

Please don't take this to mean that I don't think the criticism's of AM have some validity. There is a question of whether he'll ever do what it takes to get the right mix on this team to win. However, there's no question in my mind that he's already done that with the pitching, or at least that he's 85% of the way there. And there's no question that pitching is the most important step.

The sky really isn't falling, and 2010 is still about getting ready for 2011 no matter how much anyone likes to talk about wins and losses. That means that we need to find out if we have the right coaches - and move on if we don't, how our young pitching will slot (which means Arrieta, Erbe and likely Lebron will need significant time at the ML level this year), and it means we need to find out what we really have with guys like Jones, Bell, Snyder, Reimold and Pie.

IMO, August/September 2010 is much more important than April and to a lesser extent May. It's not necessarily a failed year, even if it is a failed April.

[msporter4]

The playing against the Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays arguement is getting stale. Either you find a way to compete or you don't. Everyone has the same oppertunity across baseball to draft and develop players as the Rays do. Everyone also has the same oppertunity to spend money on premium free agent talent like the Red Sox and Yankees do.

Do you honestly believe if the Orioles were in another division that they would be competeing and contending? Because they wouldn't.

It doesn't matter what division you are in, if you can't execute simple baseball fundamentals you won't win.

[ShoelesJoe]

I'm not sure that MacPhail is correct in that this season has been a step backwards. We lost both of our genuine leadoff hitters and two key arms out of our bullpen before the season had really started. And another young stud bat is hurting, and not helping the team yet. Because we don't have any sparkplugs at the top of the order everybody else is pressing, and not hitting well.

How would the Yankees be faring if they'd lost Cano, Granderson, Chamberlain, and Rivera to injury, and Swisher was hobbled but still in the lineup hitting .210? Betcha their billion dollar roster would be at or below .500, and everybody in pinstripe nation would be panicking.

Injuries are part of the game, but when they come in bunches the organization needs to keep them in context, and not magnify the problem beyond reality. If Roberts and Pie were healthy we'd probably be an average team on the way up. That's not a step backwards.

[Tony-OH]

And that makes that trade worse in absolutely no possible way.

That trade is still an amazing trade, and any opinion otherwise is just hindsight. We got a phenomenal amount of talent in return for a guy who pitched 160 innings over the next two years.

Really? Clearly you can call trades at the time they happen there Notrofrickin'domus. Can you grade out some drafts right after they happen and then tell everyone it's hindsight if it doesn't work out as well?

You grade trades and moves a few years down the road when you see how they work out. You can say the trade was a great concept at the time, but if Jones, Tillman and Bell don't work out, it's not a good trade. We got a tremendous amount of potential for Bedard, but unless they can become impact players at the major league level the trade was not good.

Saying the trade was amazing and no matter what happens after wards is ridiculous.

[RenegadeOsFan]

The economy in this area? We are the richest state in the United States: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-09-23/news/0909220047_1_median-household-maryland-richest-state

For reference Mass. is #5. So the economy isn't the problem. It's bad everywhere. But it's better in Maryland than everywhere else.

I would be just fine with a $110 million payroll.

I know I am jumping into this thread kind of late here, but I have to address this post.

This is the second time I have seen you use this "statistic" to support your argument that the Orioles should be spending more.

The fact that the census has us rated as the "richest state in the U.S." doesn't relate at ALL to how much the Orioles can spend. I mean, Maryland could be the richest region in the entire world and it doesn't correlate at all to how much the Orioles spend.

My point is, just because we are deemed to be the "richest" doesn't mean that people are spending their money on the Orioles. Not only that, but in the article it says that Calvert, Howard, and Montgomery counties have been in the top 10 richest counties in the country. The census uses an average of the counties' worth and applies it to the state. Therefore, those three counties alone could be throwing off the value of the rest of the state due to their worth.

And in response to your statement regarding Boston...last time I checked there are a lot of bandwagon Red Sox fans that don't live in MA, but buy a lot of their merchandise and such. Why do you think NYY are valued as high as they are by Forbes? Just because the team is located in NY???

So please STOP using this as support for your reasoning that the Orioles should spend more because it has NOTHING to do with their revenue/payroll.

[NewMarketSean]

Really? Clearly you can call trades at the time they happen there Notrofrickin'domus. Can you grade out some drafts right after they happen and then tell everyone it's hindsight if it doesn't work out as well?

You grade trades and moves a few years down the road when you see how they work out. You can say the trade was a great concept at the time, but if Jones, Tillman and Bell don't work out, it's not a good trade. We got a tremendous amount of potential for Bedard, but unless they can become impact players at the major league level the trade was not good.

Saying the trade was amazing and no matter what happens after wards is ridiculous.

I think trades have to be rated 2 ways. At the time of the deal and then a few years later when we see what both teams did or didn't get out of the trade. At the time of the trade, these were 2 very good trades with the Bedard trade potentially being one of the best trades in the last 10 years.

There is still time for the O's to get a lot out of the deal with Jones & Tillman.

But one thing is for sure -- a lot of pedals have fallen off the rose.

[Sports Guy]

The problem with this logic is that Angelos has shown in the past that he will open the pocket book to bring people in.

These are boilerplate arguments when teams struggle and no one would be saying it if the Orioles were hovering around .500 right now.

That being said - the Orioles have taken a giant step backwards and it is severely disheartening. I know that everyone involved with the team is feeling it. Adam Jones should not be struggling like this, Mike Gonzalez should not have crapped the bed, Brian Roberts should not have gotten hurt, Bergy should not have struggled, Markakis should not have scuffled this much out of the gate.

None of these things should have happened, but they did. The team took a giant step backwards.

This is such a horrible argument and I get tired of seeing it.

First of all, what he did 15 years ago means nothing right now.

Secondly, other than a few years ago where the payroll was 90ish million, he hasn't really spent...Yes, he has been middle of the pack a lot and yes, it is more about what the money has been spent on more than the amount spent but overall, all PA has proven is that he is ok with middling crappy contracts and extending fan favorites...Other than that, he spent a lot on Belle and "a lot" on Raffy but those contracts would be tremendous baragins right now, in today's game.

PA has not proven that he will spend what it takes to bring in the top players in today's economics and today's game.

The fact that we had a high payroll in 1997, when that payroll was like 50-60 million, is meaningless.

[BrunoCherrytown]

I thought at the beginning of the year we all were overrating our players, as fans are apt to do, and to a degree I was one of them. No one could foresee the injuries and mass team collapse on the offensive side, but.....

The only real minor league position player candidates within the system for the next several years are Bell and Snyder, neither of whom will ever be a real part of the answer IMHO.

Reimhold was a pleasant surprise to me, but will he ever be more than an average to somewhat above average major leaguer.

Given that we seem unwilling to trade from our pitching surplus in a package, or that any of the players constantly listed as needing to be traded are not really going to be attractive to anyone, we are left with only free agents as an option in the next couple of years.

Now either MacPhail is holding to an unrealistic view - that we will get to near contender status from within and then we'll sign players

OR-

Angelos has the purse strings firmly closed and no matter what MASN profit etc yields, it won't change.

If so, let me ask the question that all of the above leads to:

If Angelos were to sell the team, does anyone believe that new ownership would have the funds to go out and sign these players that so many feel we will need?

Please give me a scenario that at least would make me hope for the future. I'm 66 and would like to go happily baseball-wise.

Barry

Mark Cuban buys the Orioles...he wanted the Pirates...

We are the Pirates of the American League!

Problems solved...