Zrebiec: MacPhail won't ask for extension

[Flosman]

No worries...mine is the phone equivalent of an 8-track, so I don't have that problem (i.e. the ability to post from my phone).

I think the problem is the strength of the statements being bandied about. I don't think with 100% certainty that MacPhail's been (or will eventually prove himself to be) a failure, but I'm leaning towards "poor job" because I disagree with the improvement assessments I've seen. Nothing wrong with disagreement, especially when there's no "right" answer to the issue at hand. Calling people idiots for disagreeing with a subjective opinion, though...

And sangar...I'm on board with acknowledging modest accomplishments at this point. I haven't written him off completely, but it does give me pause that the improvements we witnessed came after Buck's arrival. I want to see what MacPhail does this offseason before making any concrete statements about how well he's done as the Orioles' FO leader. Agreeing to disagree in the meantime sounds perfectly reasonable.

My issue is really with the prophet it would be hard to reasonably argue that there has not been a lot of progress. It can be argue it should be faster or debating the merits of a particular move. It can even be argued that anyone could have done it with has bad has it was. But to act like AM got us where we are is crazy talk without agreeing every step he has taken has been up a steep hill.

[JTrea81]

This is pure crap.

I guess Jones, Pie, Uehara, Patterson, Matusz, Wieters, Arrieta, Albers, and Scott aren't succeeding that much.

Markakis - Drafted under Syd Thrift

Roberts - Drafted under Frank Wren

Wieters - Drafted under Mike Flanagan and Jim Duquette

Arrieta - Drafted under Mike Flanagan and Jim Duquette

Bergesen - Drafted under Jim Beattie and Mike Flanagan

Hernandez - Drafted under Jim Beattie and Mike Flanagan

Johnson - Drafted under Syd Thrift

Berken - Drafted under Jim Beattie and Mike Flanagan

MacPhail can't and shouldn't be given credit for any of those players. They were all in the system or drafted when he took control.

Without them this team would have not had the success it has had under Showalter.

[Flosman]

Markakis - Drafted under Syd Thrift

Roberts - Drafted under Frank Wren

Wieters - Drafted under Mike Flanagan and Jim Duquette

Arrieta - Drafted under Mike Flanagan and Jim Duquette

Bergesen - Drafted under Jim Beattie and Mike Flanagan

Hernandez - Drafted under Jim Beattie and Mike Flanagan

Johnson - Drafted under Syd Thrift

Berken - Drafted under Jim Beattie and Mike Flanagan

MacPhail can't and shouldn't be given credit for any of those players. They were all in the system or drafted when he took control.

Without them this team would have not had the success it has had under Showalter.

I know of posters that would have traded most of that group away and had a payroll of somewhere around 900 million. I am just saying. ..

[Crazysilver03]

I guess this is addressed to both the above and Crazysilver...

What have the Orioles' season records been since MacPhail took over? How would you rate the current minor league system (yes, the injuries are unfortunate, but moreso because of the relative paucity of talent in the system overall...a handful of injuries to as-then unproven players doesn't (or at least shouldn't) spell the difference between "success" and "not...success" for a given GM)? The fact of the matter is that the cavalry is here right now...more help is not on the way. For the near future, the O's have to add via free agency or trades if they want to get better, and (1) MacPhail has not shown himself to be adept at free agency, and (2) his major, most successful trades have involved trading away veterans for prospects, not the other way around. Jury is definitely out on whether he can bring veteran players into the organization that'll help it be truly competitive. In a different vein, IMO, the scouting department is still woefully understaffed, and our international presence(s) is sub-par. I say that not because I necessarily believe that the Orioles are the *worst* in baseball when it comes to those things, but because our division is unique insofar as what it requires to make playoff runs. The O's need to go above and beyond when it comes to scouting, and they haven't yet done so...MacPhail's role in that is that he's come out and said things along the lines of "it's not the number of scouts, it's the quality of information," etc., but when your division rivals are putting together better minor league systems and they all have significantly larger scouting departments...something's amiss.

Sorry for the rambling post. I'm in a hurry.

Taken at face value, the last two seasons have been two of the worst in Orioles history, based on the record. This season, we saw the Orioles meager up to a .500 record against the AL West and AL Central, as well as sustaining strong play under Showalter.

Most of the cavalry is here, but we still have Tillman and Britton waiting in the wings, assuming a veteran starter is brought in like suggested by MacPhail. While Snyder and Bell didn't take the step forward we had hoped, there are still options in Mahoney and Adams and a resurgence from Reimold. To act like there is no depth at this moment is to try and paint the most negative picture. Now, I would like there to be more depth, but we aren't completely hopeless.

The minor league system right now has a lot of unproven talent with high upside. We finally have infield depth, something we didn't have two seasons ago. This coming year will be a defining year for the farm system.

The mantra was "grow the arms," which has now been reached, so now it is time for MacPhail to live up to the other half of his bargain. If things aren't accomplished by February, then I will change opinion on MacPhail, but until he actually disproves himself, I am not giving up on him.

And yes, we aren't quite up to par with the other four teams in our division, but we have come a far way and we are still making strides.

[Crazysilver03]

Markakis - Drafted under Syd Thrift

Roberts - Drafted under Frank Wren

Wieters - Drafted under Mike Flanagan and Jim Duquette

Arrieta - Drafted under Mike Flanagan and Jim Duquette

Bergesen - Drafted under Jim Beattie and Mike Flanagan

Hernandez - Drafted under Jim Beattie and Mike Flanagan

Johnson - Drafted under Syd Thrift

Berken - Drafted under Jim Beattie and Mike Flanagan

MacPhail can't and shouldn't be given credit for any of those players. They were all in the system or drafted when he took control.

Without them this team would have not had the success it has had under Showalter.

And without Pie, Uehara, Matusz, Jones, and Scott, the team would not be having the success it is having under Showalter. And under Showalter, Berken nor Hernandez have really been all that effective.

This team is a good mix of several players from all regimes, why can't you admit that.

[Crazysilver03]

No worries...mine is the phone equivalent of an 8-track, so I don't have that problem (i.e. the ability to post from my phone).

I think the problem is the strength of the statements being bandied about. I don't think with 100% certainty that MacPhail's been (or will eventually prove himself to be) a failure, but I'm leaning towards "poor job" because I disagree with the improvement assessments I've seen. Nothing wrong with disagreement, especially when there's no "right" answer to the issue at hand. Calling people idiots for disagreeing with a subjective opinion, though...

And sangar...I'm on board with acknowledging modest accomplishments at this point. I haven't written him off completely, but it does give me pause that the improvements we witnessed came after Buck's arrival. I want to see what MacPhail does this offseason before making any concrete statements about how well he's done as the Orioles' FO leader. Agreeing to disagree in the meantime sounds perfectly reasonable.

I agree that calling people idiots is pushing the envelope.

But you bring up a crucial point. The biggest thing people bring up is that MacPhail didn't collect the talent, but obviously he did if they are performing like they are under Showalter. Now, the argument can be made that if he realized they were underperforming under Trembley that he should have gotten rid of him, but that doesn't relate to the talent.

[Moose Milligan]

And without Pie, Uehara, Matusz, Jones, and Scott, the team would not be having the success it is having under Showalter. And under Showalter, Berken nor Hernandez have really been all that effective.

This team is a good mix of several players from all regimes, why can't you admit that.

He will ignore this...because it puts a hole in his agenda.

[Fuego!]

JTrea:

[JTrea81]

And without Pie, Uehara, Matusz, Jones, and Scott, the team would not be having the success it is having under Showalter. And under Showalter, Berken nor Hernandez have really been all that effective.

This team is a good mix of several players from all regimes, why can't you admit that.

I can and will admit that, but you implied that most of the talent succeeding under Showalter was MacPhail's, and that isn't the case.

I can see only two cornerstone pieces acquired by MacPhail for the Orioles in the 3.5 seasons that he's been here - Matusz and Jones.

All the other pieces were already with the Orioles.

[Crazysilver03]

Well I've been over the other stuff before.

1. MacPhail should have realized the players weren't achieving their potential with Trembley. He had an opportunity to replace him not once, but 3 times. And the talent that is succeeding under MacPhail was mostly assembled by his predecessors.

2. His "plan" stunk from the start. Atkins and Tejada were not sure things to begin with, and certainly not the type of hitters the Orioles younger players needed to support them and thrive.

This is pure crap.

I guess Jones, Pie, Uehara, Patterson, Matusz, Wieters, Arrieta, Albers, and Scott aren't succeeding that much.

I can and will admit that, but you implied that most of the talent succeeding under Showalter was MacPhail's, and that isn't the case.

No where did I imply that the talent succeeding under Showalter was mostly MacPhail's. I gave him credit for Wieters and Arrieta because of him taking over between their drafting and their signing, but I was clear with my statement. You one the other hand were the one that declared "And the talent that is succeeding under MacPhail was mostly assembled by his predecessor."

[JTrea81]

No where did I imply that the talent succeeding under Showalter was mostly MacPhail's. I gave him credit for Wieters and Arrieta because of him taking over between their drafting and their signing, but I was clear with my statement. You one the other hand were the one that declared "And the talent that is succeeding under MacPhail was mostly assembled by his predecessor."

And what is wrong with that statement?

I'll admit the talent is a mix of all regimes but the majority of the difference making talent for this club was acquired under another GM not named MacPhail.

[Crazysilver03]

I can and will admit that, but you implied that most of the talent succeeding under Showalter was MacPhail's, and that isn't the case.

I can see only two cornerstone pieces acquired by MacPhail for the Orioles in the 3.5 seasons that he's been here - Matusz and Jones.

All the other pieces were already with the Orioles.

Who are the cornerstone pieces?

[Crazysilver03]

And what is wrong with that statement?

I'll admit the talent is a mix of all regimes but the majority of the difference making talent for this club was acquired under another GM not named MacPhail.

The fact that based on our lists, MacPhail has collected the most amount of talent that helped under Showalter's watch and pretty much split with the other regimes combined.

[Moose Milligan]

And what is wrong with that statement?

I'll admit the talent is a mix of all regimes but the majority of the difference making talent for this club was acquired under another GM not named MacPhail.

That's pretty ignorant, considering you're leaving off this years MVO and the teams home run leader for the past two years.

[Moose Milligan]

The fact that based on our lists, MacPhail has collected the most amount of talent that helped under Showalter's watch and pretty much split with the other regimes combined.

And let's not even begin to bring up who brought Showalter in. MacPhail had absolutely ZIPPY to do with it.