Chris Tillman = Batting Practice

[glorydays]

Trea - I brought up Smoak earlier - but can you tell me this... would you have given up on Smoak if he was on the Orioles?

[JTrea81]

Absolutely Berken at this point as he can solidify your pen.

All Tillman will do is put you in a hole early.

If you think your offense can score 5-6 runs a game during his starts, well then you can start him.

[JTrea81]

Trea - I brought up Smoak earlier - but can you tell me this... would you have given up on Smoak if he was on the Orioles?

If we were in a win now mode like this year, yes I would not have him start the season with the Orioles and would have sought a player that can fill that void. Anything he'd give me in the minors would have been a bonus and if he was tearing the cover off the ball, I'd have a decision to make but it would be a good thing.

Tillman is clearly hurting this team. They came back to win one of his starts after he'd put the Orioles in a hole. They couldn't muster enough tonight to come back again.

[glorydays]

If we were in a win now mode like this year, yes I would not have him start the season with the Orioles and would have sought a player that can fill that void. Anything he'd give me in the minors would have been a bonus and if he was tearing the cover off the ball, I'd have a decision to make but it would be a good thing.

Tillman is clearly hurting this team. They came back to win one of his starts after he'd put the Orioles in a hole. They couldn't muster enough tonight to come back again.

But, unless I am incorrect - you want nothing more to do with Tillman. Does Smoak belong in the same class - a failed prospect?

[JTrea81]

Huh???

Britt Ghiroli picked up on this as well:

Manager Buck Showalter remarked that Tillman has had one good start “statistically”, a so-so one last time out and obviously he struggled tonight. The statical comment is due to his six no-hit innings against Tampa Bay, an offense that has struggled to put any runs on the board against anyone. Clearly, Showalter wasn’t overly impressed with that first start from Tillman, although it was light-years better than what we saw on Wednesday night.

http://brittghiroli.mlblogs.com/2011/04/14/more-on-tillman/

Buck is not a Tillman fan IMO.

[Remember The Alomar]

Absolutely Berken

[video=youtube;fLrpBLDWyCI]

[JTrea81]

But, unless I am incorrect - you want nothing more to do with Tillman. Does Smoak belong in the same class - a failed prospect?

So far this season I would say no.

But Smoak has obviously adjusted - Tillman has yet to do so and the way he refused to do what the coaches wanted him to do last year speaks volumes IMO. He just wants to stay in the majors obviously, but he doesn't necessarily want to do what he needs to do to have success there IMO.

[JTrea81]

[video=youtube;fLrpBLDWyCI]

Jason Berken was worth 1.1 rWAR and 0.8 fWAR in 2010 in 62 IP.

Chris Tillman was worth 0.0 rWAR and -0.2 fWAR in 53 IP last season.

0.8 fWAR is pretty good for a middle reliever. I don't need to tell you Tillman's worth is terrible.

[SrMeowMeow]

Jason Berken was worth 1.1 rWAR and 0.8 fWAR in 2010 in 62 IP.

Chris Tillman was worth 0.0 rWAR and -0.2 fWAR in 53 IP last season.

0.8 fWAR is pretty good for a middle reliever.

You're right. This post is why you fail.

[glorydays]

So far this season I would say no.

But Smoak has obviously adjusted - Tillman has yet to do so and the way he refused to do what the coaches wanted him to do last year speaks volumes IMO. He just wants to stay in the majors obviously, but he doesn't necessarily want to do what he needs to do to have success there IMO.

So... Smoak's small sample of limited success (if that is wha you want to call it) this year has far greater weight of Tillman's small sample of limited failure. Can we not say - hey Tillman pitched no hit ball against the helpless Rays but Smoak had a 2 hit night a couple of nights ago that raised his OPS from .679 to .793? What's the difference other than you are on record giggling like a little girl in love with Smoak and you don't really care for Tillman?

[JTrea81]

You're right. This post is why you fail.

For pointing out facts?

Tillman is not worth as much as you think he is. There's a reason the Diamondbacks wanted David Hernandez (who was a bullpen pitcher BTW) instead of Tillman.

I bet if you gave any team choice between Berken or Tillman - they would take Berken.

The Orioles could cut Tillman tomorrow and pick up a starter like a Freddy Garcia for instance and get the same exact performance.

[JTrea81]

So... Smoak's small sample of limited success (if that is wha you want to call it) this year has far greater weight of Tillman's small sample of limited failure. Can we not say - hey Tillman pitched no hit ball against the helpless Rays but Smoak had a 2 hit night a couple of nights ago that raised his OPS from .679 to .793? What's the difference other than you are on record giggling like a little girl in love with Smoak and you don't really care for Tillman?

Smoak just hit a HR tonight BTW and he has always shown patience and a selective eye and that plays at the ML level. Tillman's stuff does not play at the ML level period. That's the difference. Smoak has ML skills, Tillman doesn't.

Tampa had a pretty depleted lineup BTW and was a terrible team at the plate. And he got lucky on a lot of balls that were hit and was helped out by a great defense.

[Remember The Alomar]

Jason Berken was worth 1.1 rWAR and 0.8 fWAR in 2010 in 62 IP.

Chris Tillman was worth 0.0 rWAR and -0.2 fWAR in 53 IP last season.

0.8 fWAR is pretty good for a middle reliever.

You're awesome at using stats devoid of any context. Berken is 27 and has become an above above average bullpen arm after failing as a starter . Tillman is once highly touted 23 year old prospect that has 25 career ML starts. I don't really know what else to say. Even if you think Tillman could be, at best, a 200 IP, 4.5-4.7 ERA guy you still keep him over Berken. The Berken's of the world can easily be replaced. No doubt they have value, but you don't punt on a 23 year old that has a shot of being a cheap, long term solution for a solid 27 year old bullpen arm. You make me come off as a giant Tillman fan even when I'm not. It's just basic logic.

I bet a couple years ago you thought the Red Sox should have traded Buchholtz after he wasn't magically awesome on day one, struggled, and bounced between AAA and the majors for a couple of years.

[Remember The Alomar]

The Orioles could cut Tillman tomorrow and pick up a starter like a Freddy Garcia for instance and get the same exact performance.

...

I don't even know where to begin. Are you somehow arguing that Tillman and Freddy Garcia are equal in value? Wow. You do realize that one is 23 and one is 37, correct? You do understand that maybe, perhaps, one day in the future Tillman could be a valuable cost controlled player? Even if you personally think the chances of this occurring are slim, you do realize it is a possibility? What the hell does Freddy Garcia bring to the table?

[glorydays]

You're awesome at using stats devoid of any context. Berken is 27 and has become an above above average bullpen arm after failing as a starter . Tillman is once highly touted 23 year old prospect that has 25 career ML starts. I don't really know what else to say. Even if you think Tillman could be, at best, a 200 IP, 4.5-4.7 ERA guy you still keep him over Berken. The Berken's of the world can easily be replaced. No doubt they have value, but you don't punt on a 23 year old that has a shot of being a cheap, long term solution for a solid 27 year old bullpen arm. You make me come off as a giant Tillman fan even when I'm not. It's just basic logic.

I bet a couple years ago you thought the Red Sox should have traded Buchholtz after he wasn't magically awesome on day one, struggled, and bounced between AAA and the majors for a couple of years.

If Trea was an Indian fan he would have been first in line to give Guts a swift kick to the curb. Lucky us!