Orioles had over a full WAR more than the Reds..

[El Gordo]

This pretty much sums it up. The relationship of how hard the ball is hit to BABIP, as recently documented by Mike Fast, also may play a role that isn't well measured in defensive stats.

Are there home/away splits for our overall team defense?

[Frobby]

Are there home/away splits for our overall team defense?

Not that I am aware of.

[CA-ORIOLE]

This pretty much sums it up. The relationship of how hard the ball is hit to BABIP, as recently documented by Mike Fast, also may play a role that isn't well measured in defensive stats.

UZR and DRS measures how hard a ball is hit, trajectory, batted ball type.... and where it's hit matters in terms of who is/is not not making the plays. Even if you take Jones and Reynolds alone last year they were pretty huge in that calculation. Fast's study took hit balls without regard to location or trajectory or batted ball type. It's one study that was interesting but not conclusive imo and I am not a DIPS fanatic. Our defense was and has been pretty bad and that certainly effects the pitching. I would safely say 6-8 wins worse (on defense) than the Rays last year no matter how you look at it. Not what Mike Gallo is making it out to be, but it's pretty huge.

[mikegallo]

I have yet to read anything from you that I haven't read - or often thought - myself, save for the logically flawed aspects (and some of those have been read before). We know our defense has been poor, at least according to available metrics. We also know that the available metrics have flaws and might not tell the whole story. We also know that our pitching has been poor. All you've done is highlighted a correlation. That's not the required heavy-lifting.

What I can't figure is why you're using team UZR in one-year snapshots when you completely disregarded them w/r/t the A's in your other thread.

Also, enough with the martyrdom. (i) No one here despises you or feels contempt for you. Most of us couldn't care less one way or the other. They're challenging your long-winded and poorly-worded posts (and there's nothing wrong with that); (ii) those of us who post here know who the "good" posters are.

As for this:

...you've yet to support this with anything other than supposition, assumption, and deeply flawed logic. Yes, our defense has likely been bad. No, that doesn't mean that's why our pitching hasn't developed.

The way I have worded my threads was meant to be assumptions about how our team is built....I purposefully do not do the "heavy lifting" because that is kind of the point of the rest of the thread and I have been leaving it open for the purpose for discussion...

For instances if I were to make a point (our D sucks) then back it up with heavy statistical anaylsis, what is there left to say in the thread other than yea man I agree or yupp thats it good point....

But if I make assumption based points and use examples such as our WAR being over a win better than the Reds in spite of the actual results it leaves room for the actual discussion of the problem with our team....

Then I go on to ask the questions of why they got so much more out of there pitchers, or why ours was so bad....I mean yeah I could ask the ? then answer them myself in the OP but there isn't much room so discussion at all....

And instead of the discussion that I am sheding light on and trying to engage in taking place it is dismissed because I didn't answer my own ? or is avoided with posts of my worship of great front office guys...

I would rather let the thread develop then add in stats anyalzes as to why the opening points make sense.....

I mean if you want me to neatly ask the question then answer it all in the same op and you guys then pat me on the back for it great but that is kind of boring...

And I am sure Lucky Jim and others have thought of the things I am saying but anyone who follows this board knows Defense is one of the least talked about problems and rarley is blamed for our bad record...I mean isn't the point of a message board to throw around idea's and have thoses discussions...

In my threads I make and example and then ask questions, having others try to answer those question is what will spark thoses great discussions where people do the heavy lifting and we actually get to answers as to why we suck and what other teams our doing to kick our butt....And D is one of thoses things that other good teams have used to win yet our team just does not seem to get it.

[mikegallo]

It's a huge point overall. It's unsupported re: development of our pitchers.

Go look at the Jeremy versus Zach thread if that thread does not show you that our D being horrible is not supported with the development of our young pitchers then Idk what else can be said....There seasons our a clear example of how our D has hindered our young pitching versus the Rays who make it almost impossible for there young pitching not to develop.

[mikegallo]

UZR and DRS measures how hard a ball is hit, trajectory, batted ball type and where it's hit matter in terms of who is/is not not making the plays. Even if you take Jones and Reynolds alone last year they were pretty huge in that calculation. Fast's study took hit balls without regard to location or trajectory or batted ball type. It's one study that was interesting but not conclusive imo and I am not a DIPS fanatic. Our defense was and has been pretty bad and that certainly effects the pitching. I would safely say 6-8 wins worse (on defense) than the Rays no matter how you look at it. Not what Mike Gallo is making it out to be, but it's pretty huge.

6-8 wins is like us adding ALBERT PUJOLS plus another couple wins......I mean that is an enourmous amount of wins that this team is throwing away for our quest to have a league average offense.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Go look at the Jeremy versus Zach thread if that thread does not show you that our D being horrible is not supported with the development of our young pitchers then Idk what else can be said....

....and here's where you just screw the pooch with your logic. Between the two you are probably talking 6-8 runs from defense.

[Can_of_corn]

6-8 wins is like us adding ALBERT PUJOLS plus another couple wins......I mean that is an enourmous amount of wins that this team is throwing away for our quest to have a league average offense.

How did sacrificing offense to maximize defense work out for the '10 Mariners?

[CA-ORIOLE]

6-8 wins is like us adding ALBERT PUJOLS plus another couple wins......I mean that is an enourmous amount of wins that this team is throwing away for our quest to have a league average offense.

Never denied it wasn't important Mike. In fact, I find myself defending you here. But you are the guy that stated 17 wins as fact based on WAR and integrated factually incorrect data points into your argument. Then you criticised me for nitpicking you in my response. You may think it's cute to come out swinging with a broad brush but you end up slopping paint all over your product here. It's a little hard to take you serious.

[mikegallo]

The orioles have the highest Babip in the league at .302 yet we have an below average Ld% and our Fb% is above average which tells us our D sucks....Flyballs tend to be converted into outs easier than groundballs...

So in conclusion we have below average GBs and LD above average FB and yet our ball put in play is the highest in the league, which means our team sucks at converting balls in play into outs even tho we had a much easier batted balls to deal with than most teams(more fly balls less GB and LD).....Our D is historically bad and effects our pitching more than any other team in the league...

If I am our GM the best way for us to catch up to the rest of the league is improve our D....Pitching is of course also a big problem but it is not as bad as it first appears.

[Can_of_corn]

The orioles have the highest Babip in the league at .302 yet we have an below average Ld% and our Fb% is above average which tells us our D sucks....Flyballs tend to be converted into outs easier than groundballs...

So in conclusion we have below average GBs and LD above average FB and yet our ball put in play is the highest in the league, which means our team sucks at converting balls in play into outs even tho we had a much easier batted balls to deal with than most teams(more fly balls less GB and LD).....Our D is historically bad and effects our pitching more than any other team in the league...

If I am our GM the best way for us to catch up to the rest of the league is improve our D....Pitching is of course also a big problem but it is not as bad as it first appears.

I say again how did sacrificing offense to maximize defense work out for the '10 Mariners?

[CA-ORIOLE]

The orioles have the highest Babip in the league at .302 yet we have an below average Ld% and our Fb% is above average which tells us our D sucks....Flyballs tend to be converted into outs easier than groundballs....

They also tend to go for HR's in OPACY more than they do in Tropicana Park.

[mikegallo]

Never denied it wasn't important Mike. In fact, I find myself defending you here. But you are the guy that stated 17 wins as fact based on WAR and integrated factually incorrect data points into your argument. Then you criticised me for nitpicking you in my response. You may think it's cute to come out swinging with a broad brush but you end up slopping paint all over your product here. It's a little hard to take you serious.

17 wins 14 wins 12 wins does it really matter? Our D sucks tampa's is great, they have an offense that is pretty close to ours yet almost double us in WAR for postion players...Most of that is D and to say you can't take me serious over the .005 that tampa beat us in wOBA is nitpicking....

[Can_of_corn]

17 wins 14 wins 12 wins does it really matter? Our D sucks tampa's is great, they have an offense that is pretty close to ours yet almost double us in WAR for postion players...Most of that is D and to say you can't take me serious over the .005 that tampa beat us in wOBA is nitpicking....

I say a third time, how did sacrificing offense to maximize defense work out for the '10 Mariners?

[CA-ORIOLE]

17 wins 14 wins 12 wins does it really matter? Our D sucks tampa's is great, they have an offense that is pretty close to ours yet almost double us in WAR for postion players...Most of that is D and to say you can't take me serious over the .005 that tampa beat us in wOBA is nitpicking....

Of course it matters. How can you you think stating 17 wins as fact (when it's more likely 6-8 imo) and providing factually incorrect data and false assumptions not matter? Who is going to take you serious when you do that? You're STILL not getting WAR is not the way to approach this and you're STILL making incorrect and misleading assumptions here.

They beat us by 6% in WRC+. Fangraphs does not publish park adjusted woba. WRC+ converted to Park adjusted woba is about 5 wins difference on offense. That would go into the WAR differential you're talking about. Add at least another win for baserunning and you probably have a least 6wins there. Maybe you get 6-8 wins on defense. I don't buy 10 wins on UZR and DER clearly is more like about 8 wins on defense. There are other factors in play like park/DIPS flaws/pitching characteristics in play here.