HHP: Can this organization even pretend it wants to win?

[BaltimoreTerp]

The reason this deal is a big deal to me is because our only chance to be a good team is if we have a very good GM who finds creative ways to acquire talent.

I'm still coming down from my visceral hatred of the trade, but I wonder if it isn't just this. Guthrie is a guy who has been on the market for a long time. I think if the Orioles were getting any real offers back for him he would have been gone a while ago. So maybe Duquette thought that if they can't get the kind of players the Orioles wanted in return, get a similar guy you can buy low on and maybe something else as well. Hammel had two really nice seasons before 2011, especially considering Colorado. He could crash and burn, or he could end up doing more in Baltimore than Guthrie did. Even if you only get equal production, you are getting it for less money and pushing free agency back another season, giving the team more time.

As long as he doesn't mind the reaction from the fans, which he had to know was going to be extremely negative, the deal does start to make sense the more you think about it.

[BaltimoreTerp]

The flaw in your logic is that you think the Guthrie trade evoked this sentiment. John could have posted this on any given day in the last 10 years.

Well, no. If he could have he would have.

[JanJaap]

I'm at a loss for words. For 15 years they've done everything exactly the wrong way with nary an apology, but rather a continued stream of metaphorical middle fingers to every Orioles fan out there. Sure, there was 2004 when they made a valiant attempt at putting a winner together, but when it didn't work right away, they cleaned house and haven't come close to trying again since then.

Sure you can say a bunch of new faces in the front office should improve, but we've said that about new faces in the front office that quickly got old before. Now you're trading good players for filler, and not exactly denying that you might be interested in a twice-busted PED user already a 7pm shadow of what he once was. After all, it'd be better to get him than to try to hold on to an All-Star CF you can build around, but apparently choose not to. Another Pittsburgh Pirates-like trade is certain to come with him, because now we're focusing on a bunch of bush leaguers who may, MAY, even make the big leagues. But that's our only hope, apparently. Good luck, Adam Jones, where ever you end up this year or next. And I'm sure the Yankees are already eying up Matt Wieters. After all, he surely will be next after Jones, right?

In the meantime, other additions to the club have all been minor cosmetic enhancements that don't really do anything to address any long-term needs, save for the slight chance that one of the players has a Melvin Mora-like epiphany and surprises everyone, even the front office who acquired them.

And while all that goes on, a frustrated, disenchanted, and ever-increasingly apathetic fan base loses more and more interest. I'm 99% certain this organization, at least at the top, has zero interest in winning. They simply don't care. They have their MASN money coming in, they have a few thousand fans going to the park every night, and more when the Yankees, Red Sox, and Phillies are in town. They are content and simply do not care. Arrogantly, apathetic, even. Heck, I'm wondering if they intentionally don't want to win, but just play us for suckers.

The rest of the front office has demonstrated little competency and ability to actually achieve the kind of success fans have a hard time even dreaming of being able to strive for anymore. Dan Duquette, saying this team will win more games than it loses, is out of his damn mind. Either he's flat out patronizing us, or he has no clue. Both are insulting. He was put in a no-win situation, hasn't seemingly done much to make it a winning situation, and will not get even a single, tiny bit of help from the top of the organization to change that.

Spring training hasn't even started yet, and many of you are already looking ahead to July when NFL training camps begin. A little closer to me is a team that was traveling at a racer's pace down the same path, but has since turned it around. They've invested in players at all levels and are putting forth an honest effort to win. And you know what? There's buzz. And many of my friends ask when I'm jumping on the bandwagon. I won't go that far, and I'll always love the O's, but I'm damn certain I'll be going to more games in Southeast DC than I do at the Inner Harbor. It'll be fascinating to watch an organization that cares.

In a Valentines Day like parlance, the Orioles are the girl who you want to fall in love with and think can be really great for you. But she won't bother putting in any effort and in fact ignores you. The Nationals are the new girl trying to catch your attention, and you hold her at arms length because you're still focused on the girl you love. After a while, a decision will have to be made though. Do you continue to pine for the girl you love, and who seemingly will never love you back? Or do you wake up one day and see that you've got a really great thing in front of you, and that it's time to move on?

Many fans have already decided to move on in that relationship. How many more will do the same? And how many times will it have to happen before someone at 333 West Camden Street actually cares enough to do something about it?

Well said!

[atomic]

Typically when you want to support an argument you don't start by saying we should ask the "sun board". Most of us aren't concerned with popular opinion.

Either do the Orioles as evidence by all the empty seats. I am sure you all though andy macphail was doing a bang up job when he was hired as well. This was referncing most people. As in the people who could buy tickets are watch on masn.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Either do the Orioles as evidence by all the empty seats. I am sure you all though andy macphail was doing a bang up job when he was hired as well. This was referncing most people. As in the people who could buy tickets are watch on masn.

If most Orioles fans think like you do that sounds to me like a good enough reason to become a fan of a different club.

[NewMarketSean]

If most Orioles fans think like you do that sounds to me like a good enough reason to become a fan of a different club.

Or not watch baseball at all, which is what I believe most O's fans or former O's fans have done. Case in point, O's losing attendance and the Nats not gaining any.

There is a reason the Ravens are a year-long topic on radio and other outlets for fans and thats because there is very little reason to talk about the Orioles in any given year.

[atomic]

If most Orioles fans think like you do that sounds to me like a good enough reason to become a fan of a different club.

Are you trying to say you are going to become a Yankees fan?

[NewMarketSean]

Are you trying to say you are going to become a Yankees fan?

He's in Bel Air, so Phillies.

[Mr Snuffleupagus]

The flaw in your logic is that you think the Guthrie trade evoked this sentiment. John could have posted this on any given day in the last 10 years. I agree that Guthrie's trade is not going to make the team that much worse, and it certainly won't make it any better. The point is, is that really what we've come to expect? You called this franchise awful. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would disagree. That's where the sentiment comes from.

My logic isn't flawed. I don't think it's a coincidence post like this happen virtually every-time a deal is made the a bulk of this board disagrees with. It's the Eeyore esque moping the drives me nuts. We get it, the Orioles have sucked, you say they don't care about winning, that they only care about money, blah, blah, blah. Happens after virtually every trade or missed FA.

I'm all for people being upset when they disagree with a trade. Or disagree that we should have signed FA "X". But why on earth would this team not want to win? People talk about it like every move we make is a conspiracy to lose. You think PA wouldn't just love to have Tampa's roster playing in Camden yards 81 nights a year? How much more money would it have cost him? Oh, nothing. It would actually save him ~$40m a year. Look at how many team are competitive with our payroll. If you're PA wouldn't you prefer your money be put toward a winning club? Doesn't that increase his bottom line? PA is not an idiot. He knows winning equals more money, and he knows by now he doesn't need to spend more in order to win.

So regardless of how flawed you may think the plan is, I seriously doubt the plan is "why bother. who cares. we make money no matter what".

If you find a Nationals so interesting. Good riddance.

Furthermore, why do all these other GM's care about winning so much? I'll tell you, it's not because they're worlds biggest philanthropist. It's $$$$

[atomic]

My logic isn't flawed. I don't think it's a coincidence post like this happen virtually every-time a deal is made the a bulk of this board disagrees with. It's the Eeyore esque moping the drives me nuts. We get it, the Orioles have sucked, you say they don't care about winning, that they only care about money, blah, blah, blah. Happens after virtually every trade or missed FA.

I'm all for people being upset when they disagree with a trade. Or disagree that we should have signed FA "X". But why on earth would this team not want to win? People talk about it like every move we make is a conspiracy to lose. You think PA wouldn't just love to have Tampa's roster playing in Camden yards 81 nights a year? How much more money would have cost him? Oh, nothing. It would actually save him ~$40m a year. Look at how many team are competitive with our payroll. If you're PA wouldn't you prefer your money be put toward a winning club? Doesn't that increase his bottom line? PA is not an idiot. He knows winning equals more money, and he knows by now he doesn't need to spend it in order to win.

So regardless of how flawed you may think the plan is, I seriously doubt the plan is "why bother. who cares. we make money no matter what".

If you find a Nationals so interesting. Good riddance.

Furthermore, why do all these other GM's care about winning so much? I'll tell you, it's not because they're worlds biggest philanthropist. It's $$$$

Well angelos is making money now off the team. Lots of it. Perhaps he does prefer losing. Maybe it makes him happy.

[UMDTerrapins]

Nice post John. I'm in a similar spot. I love the O's, but they're just a disaster. I can handle losing, but this horrible state of mismanagement is insulting to me as a fan. The Nats are less than a 10 minute drive from home and they are really making an effort to win. I'll never care about the Nats like I do the O's, but I'm buying into a share of a season ticket plan for the Nats this year. I haven't given Angelos my money in over 6 years and I see no remedy for the reason I started my boycott. Angelos is still Angelos. But I miss baseball and the Nats are competing for my business. I'll live and die by the O's as I always have....but the Nats get my money. What scares me a little is that after the 10 or so games I'll see in D.C. this year, I might really start to like watching a team that is committed to winning, and is good! I fell in love with the Orioles when I was a kid. That was a LONG time ago. This could be a weird transitional year for me as a fan. And I'm not happy about it.

[TiredofLosing20]

Well angelos is making money now off the team. Lots of it. Perhaps he does prefer losing. Maybe it makes him happy.

Great argument.

[BaltimoreTerp]

He's in Bel Air, so Phillies.

I want a real winner. Give me the Pirates

[MTOsFan]

My logic isn't flawed. I don't think it's a coincidence post like this happen virtually every-time a deal is made the a bulk of this board disagrees with. It's the Eeyore esque moping the drives me nuts. We get it, the Orioles have sucked, you say they don't care about winning, that they only care about money, blah, blah, blah. Happens after virtually every trade or missed FA.

I'm all for people being upset when they disagree with a trade. Or disagree that we should have signed FA "X". But why on earth would this team not want to win? People talk about it like every move we make is a conspiracy to lose. You think PA wouldn't just love to have Tampa's roster playing in Camden yards 81 nights a year? How much more money would it have cost him? Oh, nothing. It would actually save him ~$40m a year. Look at how many team are competitive with our payroll. If you're PA wouldn't you prefer your money be put toward a winning club? Doesn't that increase his bottom line? PA is not an idiot. He knows winning equals more money, and he knows by now he doesn't need to spend more in order to win.

So regardless of how flawed you may think the plan is, I seriously doubt the plan is "why bother. who cares. we make money no matter what".

If you find a Nationals so interesting. Good riddance.Furthermore, why do all these other GM's care about winning so much? I'll tell you, it's not because they're worlds biggest philanthropist. It's $$$$

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said it was only about money, and I never said anything about the Nationals.

I think our front office would like to win and I'm sure PA would love to see it as well. You're right, noone wants to lose, but you can't get from not wanting to lose to not losing by making net-zero trades and signing never-will-be's. The Rays made good on year after year of high draft picks and have a formidable team on a small budget. Well our budget is larger, our fan base is larger, our draft picks have been coming at the top of the draft, but guess what? We still suck and there is no end in sight. Is this enough to push me to another team? No, I've invested over 30 years rooting for the O's and I won't stop, but that doesn't mean I have to sit quietly while this franchise does the final swirl down the drain.

[Mr Snuffleupagus]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said it was only about money, and I never said anything about the Nationals.

I think our front office would like to win and I'm sure PA would love to see it as well. You're right, noone wants to lose, but you can't get from not wanting to lose to not losing by making net-zero trades and signing never-will-be's. The Rays made good on year after year of high draft picks and have a formidable team on a small budget. Well our budget is larger, our fan base is larger, our draft picks have been coming at the top of the draft, but guess what? We still suck and there is no end in sight. Is this enough to push me to another team? No, I've invested over 30 years rooting for the O's and I won't stop, but that doesn't mean I have to sit quietly while this franchise does the final swirl down the drain.

That wasn't directed at you. Just the general mass of O's fans who threaten to flee to another team after every bad trade. Sorry.

I doubt this is the final swirl. We've got a floater named PA that just won't flush.