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Camden Depot's Shepherd: Failed Physicals and Testing the Orioles' Success


Tony-OH

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Wada, who knows what happened. Belle is the reason why the O's do a lot of homework on player. Bundy's injury was a small one that morphed in to a larger one because the world renown Dr. Andrews screwed the pooch and wasted time trying "new" treatments for a flexor strain. Dr. Andrews misread the MRI. It happens. But it was the O's medical staff that caught the injury and pushed for TJ surgery for Bundy after Bundy followed Dr. Andrews' orders. But Bundy and O's missed 3 months of recovery because of Dr. Andrews mistake.

So there is always more to the story.

Renowned doctors mess up too. Ryan Howard went to one of the renowned doctors in Baltimore for his foot and had alot of issues. Derek Jeter also went to a great doctor and was supposed to be back in Spring training. How many games did he play in last year? AROD had to get another surgery on his hip. These athletes go to world class doctors but things don't always go as planned.

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Exactly. This is what I'm saying. Perception matters. It flows through your whole organization. It effects everything. The Orioles were making serious progress in that department in recent years. This is two steps back. Regardless of if the Orioles are in the right here! The consensus perception is unfortunately bad right now, whether or not it's warranted. And why is that? Because everyone still remembers the bad years of the Orioles.

Many things impact perception and by extension the willingness of players and other personnel to want to be part of your organization. Winning for example, something that would very likely be impacted by tying up a significant chunk of your payroll in a relief pitcher who was injured or ineffective. (Why are we spending this much on a reliever anyway?) Another huge factor would be what current Orioles have to say about being part of the team, the way they're treated, etc. In the long run I would be more concerned about that than whether Grant Balfour felt disrespected.

You're getting close to arguing that the Orioles should have gone against their better judgement and taken a risk they felt was unwarranted simply because other people might think badly of them. It's a business, not a popularity contest. Lord knows there's enough to criticize the Orioles for without blowing this out of proportion.

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I mean, you just mistated it again. It isn't a matter of handling it more publicly, comparative to other teams. The issue is standards applied to the medicals, and the public handling of a potential signing comparative to your medical standards.

I don't know if the Orioles were wrong. I think public perception across the game is that Baltimore didn't handle this well at all.

Well, again, I was responding directly to your posts.

Now, if our doctors are more stringent than other teams' doctors, I would have no idea how to even find that out, whether it is even necessarily a bad thing, or what to do about it if it is a bad thing, other than hire a new team of doctors. But whoever your doctors are, it seems to me that you should heed their advice. Otherwise, why have doctors at all?

I cannot see any evidence whatsoever that the Orioles handle these situations any more publicly than any other team. From what I have seen, there actually seem to be less leaks to the media from the Orioles than from most teams. We are usually somewhat surprised when an Oriole trade or signing is announced, because of the private nature of the way that they tend to do business. As I initially responded to you, Balfour announced this signing on twitter - not the Orioles. Once he let that cat out of the bag, I can't see how the Orioles should shoulder blame for that. I mean, are you saying that they should have come out and said Balfour was lying?

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Good pull, Tony.
Unfortunately, their PR track record is significantly less good.

If nixing the Balfour deal turns out to be a prudent move, then, I'll be very happy. I'm not nearly concerned about the Orioles' public relations fiasco(s.)

The O's have had 2 consecutive winning seasons after 14 straight losing ones, so I'm going to give Duquette and company the benfeit of the doubt that they know what they are doing, whether their moves and non-moves are popular with the fans, or not ........ not just in terms of the Balfour situation, but overall.

Back to my original post ...... good pull, Tony. Thanks.

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I cannot see any evidence whatsoever that the Orioles handle these situations any more publicly than any other team. From what I have seen, there actually seem to be less leaks to the media from the Orioles than from most teams. We are usually somewhat surprised when an Oriole trade or signing is announced, because of the private nature of the way that they tend to do business. As I initially responded to you, Balfour announced this signing on twitter - not the Orioles. Once he let that cat out of the bag, I can't see how the Orioles should shoulder blame for that. I mean, are you saying that they should have come out and said Balfour was lying?

Balfour doesn't even have a Twitter account. He never announced the signing.

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Wada, who knows what happened. Belle is the reason why the O's do a lot of homework on player. Bundy's injury was a small one that morphed in to a larger one because the world renown Dr. Andrews screwed the pooch and wasted time trying "new" treatments for a flexor strain. Dr. Andrews misread the MRI. It happens. But it was the O's medical staff that caught the injury and pushed for TJ surgery for Bundy after Bundy followed Dr. Andrews' orders. But Bundy and O's missed 3 months of recovery because of Dr. Andrews mistake.

So there is always more to the story.

The Albert Belle signing happened in the same year as the aborted Xavier Hernandez signing.

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Well you should be. Because it effects every part of the organization that we all thought was heading in the right direction. Suddenly the good scouts, players, front office people, and baseball minds may start thinking twice again before coming to the Orioles. And when that happens, the quality of your entire organization declines.

So yeah, the O's won for a couple years and did so with limited bad press. That's great. I like Dan Duquette and what he's done.

But here we are again, and we are reminded that not all is working properly in the Warehouse.

Well, I'm not. The thread is about the Orioles' history of nixing contracts with injured players, and that's what I commented on, and that is what I am primarily concerned about. Winning seasons speak louder than anything in terms of attendance, and in terms of the reputation of the organization. I've said that we need at least 3 consecutive winning seasons for the entire baseball world (Oriole fans, potential free agents, the press, rival fans of other teams) to truly believe that our 14-season drought was truly in the past, and I still believe it. 2014 needs to be another winning (at least 82 or 83 wins or more) for all to believe, and to once and for all the Orioles to not be thought of as perennial losers.

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I agree that winning seasons are above most everything else. But it's going to be difficult to get that 3rd winning season when all the remaining free agents balk at signing with Orioles because of the perception that they may get blindsided by a "failed physical" or when your current players choose to walk when their contracts are up. Public perception matters. The Orioles have taken steps backward this offseason that could have lasting effects for years to come. We'll see.

Maybe you're right.

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Balfour doesn't even have a Twitter account. He never announced the signing.

If this is true, I stand corrected. I know I read that on here. I don't have a twitter account myself.

I'm trying to go back thru the old Balfour thread to determine how this news came out. So far have this:

Duquette said closer speculation today was pretty "far out"

? Roch Kubatko (@masnRoch) December 10, 2013

So it doesn't look like as of that point the Orioles were leaking info, but I will keep searching.

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Yes, but Xavier Hernandez's injury was obvious.

In 1999, Belle played in 161 games for the Orioles. He hit 37 homeruns, drove in 117, and his slash line was .297/.400/.541. In the winter of 1999, the Orioles backed out of the Aaron Sele deal.

This whole thread arose out of a story discussing the Orioles' good track record when it comes to identifying and avoiding injured players. That story mentioned three names connected to the Orioles: Hernandez, Sele, and Burnitz. As both you and I pointed out, the Hernandez injury was obvious. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Burnitz was never even examined by the Orioles.

So we're left with Sele, and let's walk through this logically: if Belle is the reason the Orioles "do their homework" on free agents, but Belle was still extremely productive at the time of the scuttled Sele contract, how did the Orioles' medical magicians determine that Sele, who was not hurt at the time, posed an unacceptable risk on a four year contract? And if the fact is that Sele's injury risk was so "obvious" as to make a four year contract unacceptable, given that the O's had not yet started doing their homework on players (remember, Belle-still-good), then on what basis should we give the team's "track record" any credit whatsoever?

Either those same doctors you want to applaud missed something big with Belle, or figuring out that Sele was (going to be) damaged goods was simply a matter of identifying an obvious injury, like with Hernandez (i.e., doing something that any run-of-the-mill doctor ought to be able to do).

No matter how you slice it (hah...), praising the O's track record does not compute.

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In 1999, Belle played in 161 games for the Orioles. He hit 37 homeruns, drove in 117, and his slash line was .297/.400/.541. In the winter of 1999, the Orioles backed out of the Aaron Sele deal.

This whole thread arose out of a story discussing the Orioles' good track record when it comes to identifying and avoiding injured players. That story mentioned three names connected to the Orioles: Hernandez, Sele, and Burnitz. As both you and I pointed out, the Hernandez injury was obvious. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Burnitz was never even examined by the Orioles.

So we're left with Sele, and let's walk through this logically: if Belle is the reason the Orioles "do their homework" on free agents, but Belle was still extremely productive at the time of the scuttled Sele contract, how did the Orioles' medical magicians determine that Sele, who was not hurt at the time, posed an unacceptable risk on a four year contract? And if the fact is that Sele's injury risk was so "obvious" as to make a four year contract unacceptable, given that the O's had not yet started doing their homework on players (remember, Belle-still-good), then on what basis should we give the team's "track record" any credit whatsoever?

Either those same doctors you want to applaud missed something big with Belle, or figuring out that Sele was (going to be) damaged goods was simply a matter of identifying an obvious injury, like with Hernandez (i.e., doing something that any run-of-the-mill doctor ought to be able to do).

No matter how you slice it (hah...), praising the O's track record does not compute.

Maybe you are correct, they should not be praised. But can you at least admit that they didn't have a reputation of being wrong in this regard, prior to Balfour? If they did not have a reputation of being wrong, then should they not be taken at face value and not be accused of Angelos meddling, way too strict physicals ect. until this thing plays its self out?

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Maybe you are correct, they should not be praised. But can you at least admit that they didn't have a reputation of being wrong in this regard, prior to Balfour? If they did not have a reputation of being wrong, then should they not be taken at face value and not be accused of Angelos meddling, way too strict physicals ect. until this thing plays its self out?

It certainly doesn't look like they've pulled out of a deal for medical reasons that were later found to be baseless (let alone fabricated). I still don't think that's the primary issue, though. It's just one facet of everything else that's been discussed in the thread.

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If this is true, I stand corrected. I know I read that on here. I don't have a twitter account myself.

I'm trying to go back thru the old Balfour thread to determine how this news came out. So far have this:

Duquette said closer speculation today was pretty "far out"

? Roch Kubatko (@masnRoch) December 10, 2013

So it doesn't look like as of that point the Orioles were leaking info, but I will keep searching.

I will take a partial hit for that.

It was a Balfour parody account that was retweeted. I didn't follow the parody account so had no idea it wasn't legit, my guess is the person in my line didn't know it was a parody account either.

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