Orioles Searching Outside Organization for Backup C (per Roch)

[CA-ORIOLE]

I would stick with Clevenger also. But does it really matter? Buck will catch or play Wieters 150 games if he can. I still dont see the draw to Wieters. I really hope they do something else rather than extend him when the time comes. If you had a platoon of say Clevenger and a RH batting catcher give you a line of .250/15/70 over a season and catch 25% of stealers would Wieters be missed?

Good post mpw. Some of us have been saying this for awhile. We obviously need to do more work than going with a Tegarden/Snyder to replace Wieters but I'd guess a platoon combo could get production close to Wieter's at a fraction of his projected extension cost with some effort (which it looks we've been undertaking the past year or so). DD just needs to take charge and ignore the Buckster on this one.

[Frobby]

That logic seems pretty flawed. For one, there is no rate of efficiency. Some staffs just throw more WP's that aren't necessarily catchable. DRS's "rsbc" component which includes 'base runner kills and advances" actually had Perez ahead of Wieters by 2 runs last year. Among other things it compensates for pitching staff holds (TTP's) as part of the baserunner kills calculation. That said, I do think Wieters long arms probably do prevent some WP's. On the other hand I think he doesn't set up well (nor is he particularly mobile) and uses his arms to reach instead of frame pitches.

Not just directed at Frobby here, but some questions for all you "Wieters is a great defensive catcher" guys:

1. Do you think Wieters is particularly great at pouncing on slow rollers/bunts?

2. Is he particularly good at snap throws to 1st/3rd resulting in a number of out plays per year that some other top catchers in the league provide (outside of SB kill rate)?

3. Do you think his SB kill rate would be (at least marginally) lower (and attempt rate higher) without the TTP emphasis?

4. Do you think he sets up well and frames pitches well? Does he remind you of a guy on roller skates back there behind the plate?

5. Do you think his game calling skills are superior to other catchers around the league?

6. Do you think his "superior hard work ethic" has resulted in tangible improvements to our pitching staffs performance?

To be honest I'd say no to most of those. I don't see a great defensive catcher other than his arm/kill rate which is clearly above average.

I'm not buying the "Buck thinks he's great" argument either. The Teagarden and Clevenger stuff should dispell that nonsense (at least in this area). Awhile back I posted a thread about Rick Dempsey calling out Wieter's as needing to do a lot of work in all areas of his defense (besides throwing). I'm calling my Rick Dempsey card on this one to all you Buck/Wieters lovers.

I don't consider myself competent to judge nos. 4 and 5. I will say this, he's a lot quieter behind the dish than Ramon (ants in his pants) Hernandez was. I don't think he's as good at no. 2 as some elite catchers, but I do think he has a great release and a strong, accurate arm. and his CS% and low number of attempted steals are largely his own doing, not so much a function of TTTP.

And while I agree with you that wild pitches are not only a function of the catcher, I do think it is very obvious from watching him that Wieters is far above average at blocking pitches.

And yes, I feel there are some aspects of catching that Buck Showalter can judge much better than I can.

[weams]

I don't consider myself competent to judge nos. 4 and 5. I will say this, he's a lot quieter behind the dish than Ramon (ants in his pants) Hernandez was. I don't think he's as good at no. 2 as some elite catchers, but I do think he has a great release and a strong, accurate arm. and his CS% and low number of attempted steals are largely his own doing, not so much a function of TTTP.

And while I agree with you that wild pitches are not only a function of the catcher, I do think it is very obvious from watching him that Wieters is far above average at blocking pitches.

And yes, I feel there are some aspects of catching that Buck Showalter can judge much better than I can.

That is true. No one on the Orioles is particularly quick to home plate. Even with Buck's emphasis.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I don't consider myself competent to judge nos. 4 and 5. I will say this, he's a lot quieter behind the dish than Ramon (ants in his pants) Hernandez was. I don't think he's as good at no. 2 as some elite catchers, but I do think he has a great release and a strong, accurate arm. and his CS% and low number of attempted steals are largely his own doing, not so much a function of TTTP.

And while I agree with you that wild pitches are not only a function of the catcher, I do think it is very obvious from watching him that Wieters is far above average at blocking pitches.

And yes, I feel there are some aspects of catching that Buck Showalter can judge much better than I can.

Thanks for the reply Frobby.

I think he's a slightly above average catcher at this point. Nothing special. Certainly not elite (sounds like we agree on that). If you take into account framing (which I don't think he's very good at), he probably falls closer to average imo. I find it interesting that you and weams both think TTP means practically nothing (DRS does count it, though you can certainly dispute their methodology) despite Buck's fanatacism about it. Even stranger, that you defer to Buck's judgement in the same post.

In regards to number 2, I think an elite guy like Molina can get 6-8 guys on snap throws over a season. I honestly can't recall Wieters ever making that play. I also think number 4 is below average. The others don't really strike me one way or the other. I guess I haven't noticed him as being particularly awesome at blocking pitches (i.e in the dirt etc.) though I agree he gets at pitches with his arm length/extension.

Like I said, if it's a "Buck said" argument, particularly about catcher, I'll take Rick Dempsey's opinion over Biased Buck's on the matter. Also (anecdotal), other than Buck and here, I don't really here a lot of talk about Wieter's being a superior/elite defensive catcher despite his very high/elite CS%. Certainly here a lot about other catchers though.

Wieter's has been a good catcher and provided good value. Totally against extending him though, and I really don't think Buck has a clear picture on this one.

[CA-ORIOLE]

That is true. No one on the Orioles is particularly quick to home plate. Even with Buck's emphasis.

Off the top of my head, I think Tillman is much improved and Chen is good. Gonna be interesting to see the Jimenez games and maybe isolate those.

[Catch 8]

Teams are at varying stages of assigning value to sequencing and putting it all into the catcher's defensive models (my understanding; I don't have inside info on the specific progress). It's not there yet, but folks should be pretty confident as to who the best and worst are at framing, and that it is an important part of a catcher's value. Common sense gets you there without the numbers, but we know hitters do better ahead in the count, and worse when behind. We know hitters do better with balls in the middle of the plate than if they are forced to protect a larger plate. Etc.

This guy gets it!

[weams]

Off the top of my head, I think Tillman is much improved and Chen is good. Gonna be interesting to see the Jimenez games and maybe isolate those.

Probably true on Tillman and Chen.

[Frobby]

Thanks for the reply Frobby.

I think he's a slightly above average catcher at this point. Nothing special. Certainly not elite (sounds like we agree on that). If you take into account framing (which I don't think he's very good at), he probably falls closer to average imo. I find it interesting that you and weams both think TTP means practically nothing (DRS does count it, though you can certainly dispute their methodology) despite Buck's fanatacism about it. Even stranger, that you defer to Buck's judgement in the same post.

In regards to number 2, I think an elite guy like Molina can get 6-8 guys on snap throws over a season. I honestly can't recall Wieters ever making that play. I also think number 4 is below average. The others don't really strike me one way or the other. I guess I haven't noticed him as being particularly awesome at blocking pitches (i.e in the dirt etc.) though I agree he gets at pitches with his arm length/extension.

Like I said, if it's a "Buck said" argument, particularly about catcher, I'll take Rick Dempsey's opinion over Biased Buck's on the matter. Also (anecdotal), other than Buck and here, I don't really here a lot of talk about Wieter's being a superior/elite defensive catcher despite his very high/elite CS%. Certainly here a lot about other catchers though.

Wieter's has been a good catcher and provided good value. Totally against extending him though, and I really don't think Buck has a clear picture on this one.

Regarding pick offs: Molina has picked off 48 runners in 10 years, Wieters has picked off 4 in 5 years. Perez has picked off 9 in 3 years. So, I agree that's not a big play in Wieters' arsenal.

[weams]

Off the top of my head, I think Tillman is much improved and Chen is good. Gonna be interesting to see the Jimenez games and maybe isolate those.

I am not one who believe that Matusz was a failed pick because of Buck's emphasis on TTTP. I do think that watching Wieters with Jimenez and and Kelvin De La Cruz will be interesting.

[olehippi]

Regarding pick offs: Molina has picked off 48 runners in 10 years, Wieters has picked off 4 in 5 years. Perez has picked off 9 in 3 years. So, I agree that's not a big play in Wieters' arsenal.

Maybe this is because Wieters is confident that he can throw them out at 2B despite runners getting a longer lead. Of course, that longer lead also gives the runner a couple of extra steps going first-to-third on a hit, or possibly scoring.

[Frobby]

Maybe this is because Wieters is confident that he can throw them out at 2B despite runners getting a longer lead. Of course, that longer lead also gives the runner a couple of extra steps going first-to-third on a hit, or possibly scoring.

Not many catchers pick off a lot of guys. From 2003-09, Molina had 33 and the next closest guys were 19, 17, 13 and 11. It's a somewhat risky play in that if the throw isn't caught, you're probably giving up 2 bases on a throw to 1B and a run on a throw to 3B.

Lots of catchers with good arms rarely use this play. Rick Dempsey picked off 24 guys in 24 years. Molina is one of the all time greats in this category. Pudge Rodriguez picked off 81 in his career, Johnny Bench picked off 62, Molina is at 48 and counting.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I would agree that Wieters is among the best when it comes to blocking balls. To take it a step further, I think he's one of the best I've ever seen at using his glove to catch pitches that bounce. I believe the book says a catcher should drop down and and take it off the chest protector. You really aren't supposed to try and catch those because if it caroms off your glove it's going a long way. However, Wieters has been able to be very successful by catching a lot of those with the glove. JMO

Well, I'd agree he uses his glove more than his body as compared to other catchers. Not so sure about the efficiency and end result.

[Frobby]

Aren't the lack of wild pitches and passed balls the end result?

No, that's the spectacular control of our pitchers....

[CA-ORIOLE]

Aren't the lack of wild pitches and passed balls the end result?

Not necessarily. They can be blocked effectively by fronting the ball instead of swiping them with your glove. Using Frobbys example, we have a system that says Salvador Perez is better than Wieters at preventing runners from advancing despite more WP's and the same CS%. Perez actually had a better PB rate than Wieters last year. A lot of the WP's are dependent on the pitching staff.

[CA-ORIOLE]

No, that's the spectacular control of our pitchers....

Frobby with the snark. i like it !!