D-Cab Still Bad

[NewMarketSean]

I notice you have a quote from me in your signature line where I state that I don't view "not making outs" as a great stat. Let me expound on this. The reason I don't view this as a "great" stat is it encompasses aspects that have little to do with talent. For example, reaching base via an error is nothing to credit a batter for whatsover. Same as getting hit by a pitch. Yet these are included in your "not making an out" stat. I view baseball as a game where stats should be positive not negative. In other words, I want a hitter to hit the ball and not merely "try to get on base." This comes from a mindset of having played the game at admittedly low levels during the 60's and 70's where the goal was to "earn" your way on base not have it handed to you.

So you can attempt to mock me in your signature line all you want but you are only making light of something you simply are too narrow minded to grasp, and I say that it a positive manner not in a mean spirited manner. Hopefully you will understand what I am explaining here to you.

As far as Cabrera I disagree in the belief that he cannot learn better or more consistent control of his pitches. It requires mental discipline moreso than physical talent. The fact that some games he has control shows it can be done.

However, if indeed he is messing around with grass that would totally explain his problems. He is mentally weak. With that in mind, If I were the Orioles I would cut him loose. I also don't understand how he could pass drug testing if this was true either.

Taking pitches and working the count is a part of the game -- as much as hitting the ball and catching it.

It makes the pitcher work more (higher pitch count) and gives you a better chance of getting ahead in the count to get the pitch you want to hit, and if not, increases your chances of getting on base from a BB.

Just accept that you are wrong once in a while... sheesh.

[DrungoHazewood]

In other words, I want a hitter to hit the ball and not merely "try to get on base." This comes from a mindset of having played the game at admittedly low levels during the 60's and 70's where the goal was to "earn" your way on base not have it handed to you.

Walking isn't being passive for the sake of not earning your way on base. Walking is a byproduct of not swinging at pitches you can't drive. Walking is what happens when you look at that pitch three inches off the outside corner instead of tapping it to the second baseman. Walking is what happens when the pitcher won't throw you a strike because he knows you'll hurt him, and you refuse to give into him and swing at his pitch.

You're wrong if you think walks are the result of timid batters who're afraid to swing and can't earn their way on base. Not walking is what happens when a batter is afraid to trust their judgment (or if they have no judgment) on whether a pitch is hittable or not.

When you swing at a ball out of the zone and all you've earned is the out you're probably going to make, lessening your team's chances at winning.

[Old#5fan]

Taking pitches and working the count is a part of the game -- as much as hitting the ball and catching it.

It makes the pitcher work more (higher pitch count) and gives you a better chance of getting ahead in the count to get the pitch you want to hit, and if not, increases your chances of getting on base from a BB.

Just accept that you are wrong once in a while... sheesh.

At the major league level for the most part, I agree with you but even there not always. However, it certainly is no accomplishment to stand there and watch a pitcher sail the ball halfway up the backstop as many pitchers do in Little League or even at some higher levels. What I am saying, is I personally don't give anyone as much credit for walking as I do getting on base by a hit even though it is reaching base. Also, getting on by an error is no credit to a batter nor getting hit by a pitch, yet it is "not making an out." However, I see you fail to address that. To me it just takes much more "skill" to get a hit in the game of baseball than to get on base any other manner period. Accept that you could be wrong in disagreeing with that, because I think it is common sense.

[Old#5fan]

Walking isn't being passive for the sake of not earning your way on base. Walking is a byproduct of not swinging at pitches you can't drive. Walking is what happens when you look at that pitch three inches off the outside corner instead of tapping it to the second baseman. Walking is what happens when the pitcher won't throw you a strike because he knows you'll hurt him, and you refuse to give into him and swing at his pitch.

You're wrong if you think walks are the result of timid batters who're afraid to swing and can't earn their way on base. Not walking is what happens when a batter is afraid to trust their judgment (or if they have no judgment) on whether a pitch is hittable or not.

When you swing at a ball out of the zone and all you've earned is the out you're probably going to make, lessening your team's chances at winning.

Again, I disagree. Walking can be as you describe but if you have followed the game I am sure you have seen cases of pitchers who simply are wild and cannot throw a strike to save their proverbial hindquarters. Daniel Cabrera comes to mind. I am sure you have seen other pitchers come in from the bullpen and not be able to get the ball over or even near the plate. Under that situation it is not a matter of a batter being skilled to earn a walk, it is a lack of control by the pitcher or his inablity to harness his pitches. John Parrish also had this problem last season and that is why he continues to struggle to stay in the Majors. If a pitcher comes in from the bullpen and walks four straight batters on 16 pitchers I don't see how the hitters deserve much credit for simply not being stupid.

BTW, if you have ever tried to pitch in a game of baseball where there is an umpire you would find it is not all that easy to throw strikes. It is also not all that easy to get base hits either as you go to higher levels. However, a walk is always easy for a hitter if the pitcher is as wild as a March hare. You act like all pitchers have pinpoint control all the time for some reason?

[Tx Oriole]

Just great another over reaction about Cabrera. I still will give him more time. Just the second game of ST. I don't believe there is anything to fret about. I will wait till the 2008 season is over to judge him.

[The Wedge]

Walking isn't being passive for the sake of not earning your way on base. Walking is a byproduct of not swinging at pitches you can't drive. Walking is what happens when you look at that pitch three inches off the outside corner instead of tapping it to the second baseman. Walking is what happens when the pitcher won't throw you a strike because he knows you'll hurt him, and you refuse to give into him and swing at his pitch.

You're wrong if you think walks are the result of timid batters who're afraid to swing and can't earn their way on base. Not walking is what happens when a batter is afraid to trust their judgment (or if they have no judgment) on whether a pitch is hittable or not.

When you swing at a ball out of the zone and all you've earned is the out you're probably going to make, lessening your team's chances at winning.

One of the things that has made Barry Bonds such a beast of a hitter is his eye, and his ability to lay off close pitches, to you know, take the walk.

[NuOriolesNation]

Just great another over reaction about Cabrera. I still will give him more time. Just the second game of ST. I don't believe there is anything to fret about. I will wait till the 2008 season is over to judge him.

I seriously doubt you will wait until the season is over. Sometime this season, Danny is bound to have one of those 5 inning games where he walks 8 batters. You will pass judgement when this occurs, I am sure. Because I know I will.

[Old#5fan]

One of the things that has made Barry Bonds such a beast of a hitter is his eye, and his ability to lay off close pitches, to you know, take the walk.

I don't disagree but in general a baseball player at lower levels including Bond as he came up through the ranks would not be taking those close pitches as umpires at lower levels would call mostly any hitter out on a pitch an inch off the plate. Therefore, he had to learn to hit those close pitches even if technically a ball. His reputation as a slugger also helps him get those close pitches in the majors that he wouldn't get the calls as a rookie or unproven hitter. That is just reality.

Where I disagree with Drungo is he classifies all walks as the batter being extremely skilled to attain them and anyone should know if they played the game that is certainly in many instances simply not the case. There are times when you bat that a pitcher simply cannot even get a pitch close to being hittable. At those times it takes no skill not to chase wild pitches. In fact, ifyou stand there and simply watch a guy throw balls that are impossible to hit as they are so far out of the zone it is no more difficult than walking up to the plate to begin with.

[NewMarketSean]

At the major league level for the most part, I agree with you but even there not always. However, it certainly is no accomplishment to stand there and watch a pitcher sail the ball halfway up the backstop as many pitchers do in Little League or even at some higher levels.

So what should the batter do, swing at those wild pitches so they can get your Oldfan seal of approval?

What I am saying, is I personally don't give anyone as much credit for walking as I do getting on base by a hit even though it is reaching base.

The object of the game is to score runs. Getting on base (by whatever means necessary) is how you score runs. And really, who cares what you give players credit for, other than yourself?

Also, getting on by an error is no credit to a batter nor getting hit by a pitch, yet it is "not making an out." However, I see you fail to address that.

I didn't address that because we're talking about taking pitches to earn walks! It's the same reason I didn't mention the big bang or cold fusion... because we weren't discussing it!

But now that we are, I might as well take you to task again, because the game of baseball is as much as hitting the ball as it is having the other team get you out. If you put a ball in play, it is now on the defense to make an out. If they can't do that, that is on them. The same can be said of walks.

It's no fluke that the Red Sox, the most patient team at the plate, has won 2 WS in the last 3 years.

To me it just takes much more "skill" to get a hit in the game of baseball than to get on base any other manner period. Accept that you could be wrong in disagreeing with that, because I think it is common sense.

You are writing off walks as meaningless and useless. That is 100% wrong. Yes it takes more skill to hit the ball than to take a walk the same way that it takes more skill to thread the needle in football and complete a pass in coverage as opposed to completing a pass in blown coverage.

But it is a skill none the less and if your opponent is giving you something, you'd be an absolute fool not to take it.

And let me finish by asking this... which player would you say is "better"?.

Player 1

.300 AVG

.325 OBP

.440 SLG

.765 OPS

Player 2

.260 AVG

.380 OBP

.440 SLG

.820 OPS

[The Wedge]

I'm sorry, but taking a walk is never a bad thing. If the pitcher gives you a free base either by design or incompetence, it's always to the offenses advantage. The ball is then in their court. Even when the "odds on" defensive move is to IBB to create a force.

[DrungoHazewood]

Again, I disagree. Walking can be as you describe but if you have followed the game I am sure you have seen cases of pitchers who simply are wild and cannot throw a strike to save their proverbial hindquarters. Daniel Cabrera comes to mind. I am sure you have seen other pitchers come in from the bullpen and not be able to get the ball over or even near the plate. Under that situation it is not a matter of a batter being skilled to earn a walk, it is a lack of control by the pitcher or his inablity to harness his pitches. John Parrish also had this problem last season and that is why he continues to struggle to stay in the Majors. If a pitcher comes in from the bullpen and walks four straight batters on 16 pitchers I don't see how the hitters deserve much credit for simply not being stupid.

BTW, if you have ever tried to pitch in a game of baseball where there is an umpire you would find it is not all that easy to throw strikes. It is also not all that easy to get base hits either as you go to higher levels. However, a walk is always easy for a hitter if the pitcher is as wild as a March hare. You act like all pitchers have pinpoint control all the time for some reason?

- All walks aren't due to batter skill, and I never said they were. Even Shawon Dunston used to walk once or twice a month and he couldn't tell a ball down the middle from one headed for the press box.

- I never said that all pitchers have pinpoint control.

- Hitters deserve a lot of credit for not being stupid. It's a skill to be able to discern a ball from a strike. A large majority of all major league at bats are facing a pitcher who can throw a strike. The batter knows this and has to make a split second decision as to whether the pitch is a strike and whether he can hit it well. Those who make this decision correctly and act on it walk a lot more than those who can't.

- I love all of these not-so-subtle jabs like "if you have followed the game" and " if you have ever tried to pitch in a game of baseball" that hint around that I don't pay attention, and have no idea what I'm talking about.

[The Wedge]

I mean, I've never yelled at my screen "YOU IDIOT! WHY DID YOU TAKE THAT WALK!"

[NewMarketSean]

- All walks aren't due to batter skill, and I never said they were. Even Shawon Dunston used to walk once or twice a month and he couldn't tell a ball down the middle from one headed for the press box.

- I love all of these not-so-subtle jabs like "if you have followed the game" and " if you have ever tried to pitch in a game of baseball" that hint around that I don't pay attention, and have no idea what I'm talking about.

Respect your elders, Drungo. When you've been watching sports on TV for 50 years (which means starting when you were 4), you'll be able to put these subtle jabs in your posts too!!!!

[Old#5fan]

So what should the batter do, swing at those wild pitches so they can get your Oldfan seal of approval?

The object of the game is to score runs. Getting on base (by whatever means necessary) is how you score runs. And really, who cares what you give players credit for, other than yourself?

I didn't address that because we're talking about taking pitches to earn walks! It's the same reason I didn't mention the big bang or cold fusion... because we weren't discussing it!

But now that we are, I might as well take you to task again, because the game of baseball is as much as hitting the ball as it is having the other team get you out. If you put a ball in play, it is now on the defense to make an out. If they can't do that, that is on them. The same can be said of walks.

It's no fluke that the Red Sox, the most patient team at the plate, has won 2 WS in the last 3 years.

You are writing off walks as meaningless and useless. That is 100% wrong. Yes it takes more skill to hit the ball than to take a walk the same way that it takes more skill to thread the needle in football and complete a pass in coverage as opposed to completing a pass in blown coverage.

But it is a skill none the less and if your opponent is giving you something, you'd be an absolute fool not to take it.

And let me finish by asking this... which player would you say is "better"?.

Player 1

.300 AVG

.325 OBP

.440 SLG

.765 OPS

Player 2

.260 AVG

.380 OBP

.440 SLG

.820 OPS

I would guess Player one but not enough information is provided such a runs batted in, scored, or produced. Player one is more likely to have surpassed player two in that regard because of his higher BA which is more likely to produce runs than a mere walk.

In case you don't understand what I mean by that. A walk can only drive in a run with the bases loaded. Whereas a hit can drive in a run at any time and often times more than one.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I would guess Player one but not enough information is provided such a runs batted in, scored, or produced. Player one is more likely to have surpassed player two in that regard because of his higher BA which is more likely to produce runs than a mere walk.

In case you don't understand what I mean by that. A walk can only drive in a run with the bases loaded. Whereas a hit can drive in a run at any time and often times more than one.

Player two is more likely to be on base for the people behind them, which means they are more likely to help the team by scoring runs.