We are cheap, proven

[brianod]

Did you read the book I mentioned? It is kinda relevant to the discussion. I guess you could call it research.

And you won't give me a number.

You just say more.

No I haven't but it sounds interesting, thanks for the recommendation. Believe it or not, I'm an accounting major. But, I have no idea how to calculate ROI for the Orioles. I suspect it's a very difficult thing to do. What I will say is that if the Brewers can accpect 11 million in profit, so can we. That would give us another 20 million to spend on this team.

[weams]

No I haven't but it sounds interesting, thanks for the recommendation. Believe it or not, I'm an accounting major. But, I have no idea how to calculate ROI for the Orioles. I suspect it's a very difficult thing to do. What I will say is that if the Brewers can accpect 11 million in profit, so can we. That would give us another 20 million to spend on this team.

But what he is saying is that we have no idea what the Brewers are making. None.

[Can_of_corn]

No I haven't but it sounds interesting, thanks for the recommendation. Believe it or not, I'm an accounting major. But, I have no idea how to calculate ROI for the Orioles. I suspect it's a very difficult thing to do. What I will say is that if the Brewers can accpect 11 million in profit, so can we. That would give us another 20 million to spend on this team.

Lets look at 11 million then.

Now MLB has taken two home dates away from the Orioles and moved three, resulting in a significant hit to revenues. Ownership has also promised to make good with the employees that lost wages do to the shutdown. As someone who wants a civic minded owner I am sure you, like me, approve of his actions.

How much do you think that cost the team? How much hit of attendance are the riots going to be? I am sure you will agree that there will be some carry over effect until the end of the season. Now let us say the team continues to under perform, it can happen, even when you spend big. How much is attendance and ad revenue going to be hurt by that?

Have we eaten all of that 11 million yet? Are they going to have to skimp on the draft or maybe make a trade to dump salary?

In a year by year basis there is some risk to setting profits low.

As for the book it is an interesting read, woefully outdated by now but some interesting idea. I haven't read his more recent stuff since I don't care for some of his behavior.

[brianod]

But what he is saying is that we have no idea what the Brewers are making. None.

My assumption is that the costs of a major league franchise, outside of salaries, are basically equivalent. I think that's a valid assumption. If you look at the original post, there are all kinds of teams accepting less profit as a percentage than the O's. Anahiem, in a big market spends 150 million on salary and accepts a profit of 17 million. Milwaukee is a market like the O's accepts 11 million in profit. You are right in that we are missing the other costs from other teams, but, if both big market and small market teams accept less profit, I am assuming the other costs equal out. I find it hard to believe that the O's other costs are anywhere close to the LA Angels...

[Can_of_corn]

My assumption is that the costs of a major league franchise, outside of salaries, are basically equivalent. I think that's a valid assumption. If you look at the original post, there are all kinds of teams accepting less profit as a percentage than the O's. Anahiem, in a big market spends 150 million on salary and accepts a profit of 17 million. Milwaukee is a market like the O's accepts 11 million in profit. You are right in that we are missing the other costs from other teams, but, if both big market and small market teams accept less profit, I am assuming the other costs equal out. I find it hard to believe that the O's other costs are anywhere close to the LA Angels...

I don't see how that piece of research can live in the same world as the Fangraphs piece I keep quoting.

Maybe you can reconcile them.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/creating-an-expected-payroll-for-all-mlb-teams/

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/importance-of-market-size-attendance-and-tv-revenue-on-payroll/

[weams]

My assumption is that the costs of a major league franchise, outside of salaries, are basically equivalent. I think that's a valid assumption. If you look at the original post, there are all kinds of teams accepting less profit as a percentage than the O's. Anahiem, in a big market spends 150 million on salary and accepts a profit of 17 million. Milwaukee is a market like the O's accepts 11 million in profit. You are right in that we are missing the other costs from other teams, but, if both big market and small market teams accept less profit, I am assuming the other costs equal out. I find it hard to believe that the O's other costs are anywhere close to the LA Angels...

But I have no idea where any of that data comes from. And I do not even think the methods are standardized. I do know that when we though thought the Orioles were making tons of money that they were actually put on debt probation by the MLB. There are a lot of thing here that we don't know and can't know and I will not decide that someone else knows them. It is not a publically traded entity. You and I absolutely remember when if it was stated that Arthur Andersen had verified the numbers that they were valid number that we could debate.

[Can_of_corn]

But I have no idea where any of that data comes from. And I do not even think the methods are standardized. I do know that when we though thought the Orioles were making tons of money that they were actually put on debt probation by the MLB. There are a lot of thing here that we don't know and can't know and I will not decide that someone else knows them. It is not a publically traded entity. You and I absolutely remember when if it was stated that Arthur Andersen had verified the numbers that they were valid number that we could debate.

For what it is worth (not much) I think that has a lot to do with the "loan" Angelos gave to the team. I think it was some form of bookkeeping chicanery.

[brianod]

I don't see how that piece of research can live in the same world as the Fangraphs piece I keep quoting.

Maybe you can reconcile them.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/creating-an-expected-payroll-for-all-mlb-teams/

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/importance-of-market-size-attendance-and-tv-revenue-on-payroll/

why don't you do me a favor and spell it out for me? Please inlude why profit and salary are irrelevant and the fangraphs chart proves all.

[weams]

For what it is worth (not much) I think that has a lot to do with the "loan" Angelos gave to the team. I think it was some form of bookkeeping chicanery.

Very possibly. And then it may well have been that the team was operating from his pocket when it was so poorly run. You and I will never know.

[Can_of_corn]

why don't you do me a favor and spell it out for me? Please inlude why profit and salary are irrelevant and the fangraphs chart proves all.

Well if you are an accounting major I think you would be better suited to spell it out. To my layman's eye the fangraphs piece looks sound, they even use the same Forbes information.

[Can_of_corn]

Very possibly. And then it may well have been that the team was operating from his pocket when it was so poorly run. You and I will never know.

It is possible, pre-MASN, that the Orioles, in an attempt to become relevant, invested too much into payroll. They had some fairly expensive yet poorly performing teams.

[weams]

It is possible, pre-MASN, that the Orioles, in an attempt to become relevant, invested too much into payroll. They had some fairly expensive yet poorly performing teams.

And some unsavory characters in the organization that may well have siphoned off monies just like Rijos, Jim Bowden and possibly Mike Rizzo did.

[brianod]

But I have no idea where any of that data comes from. And I do not even think the methods are standardized. I do know that when we though thought the Orioles were making tons of money that they were actually put on debt probation by the MLB. There are a lot of thing here that we don't know and can't know and I will not decide that someone else knows them. It is not a publically traded entity. You and I absolutely remember when if it was stated that Arthur Andersen had verified the numbers that they were valid number that we could debate.

The profit/salary ratio is damning. I agree, not conclusive, but hopefully, you can agree that it would be good if it could be explained.

[brianod]

Well if you are an accounting major I think you would be better suited to spell it out. To my layman's eye the fangraphs piece looks sound, they even use the same Forbes information.

LOL, are you kidding me? You call my numbers garbage and then use them to make your point? Haha, I believe if this was a debate, you just lost.

[Can_of_corn]

LOL, are you kidding me? You call my numbers garbage and then use them to make your point? Haha, I believe if this was a debate, you just lost.

If this was a debate you would have lost two days ago. I was trying to play nice. And I, for the record, was stating that someone else used the same numbers you did (as one source) and produced a significantly different end product.