Foreign substances

[Can_of_corn]

Why pick on Jennings when it's been done before by managers with a lot more experience?

Because in those other cases the pitcher looked like this:

[weams]

Buster Olney

Jonny Gomes and Nick Markakis, acknowledged to Mark Bowman that pitchers -- including some of their own teammates, in the past -- use some sort of foreign substance to improve their grip, but that Smith was just blatant in his use.

We've been outed.

Dozens and dozens and dozens of pitchers are using something, and the vast majority of hitters are fine with that because they know the pitcher has a better chance of controlling baseballs that feel like pool balls right out of the box.

[BradyBunch]

Why pick on Jennings when it's been done before by managers with a lot more experience?

Season managers and players only say something when it's showing. Think Pineda. Though Pineda has gotten better at hiding it.

[Morgan423]

Also I just checked his stats and it seems to me that they need to be checking Brian Matusz more for foreign horseshoes, four-leaf clovers, and magic wands than they do for rosin and sunscreen. His FIP is over two runs higher than his ERA, so he has lucked himself through several occurrences where he should have coughed up runs but didn't.

[Can_of_corn]

Also I just checked his stats and it seems to me that they need to be checking Brian Matusz more for foreign horseshoes, four-leaf clovers, and magic wands than they do for rosin and sunscreen. His FIP is over two runs higher than his ERA, so he has lucked himself through several occurrences where he should have coughed up runs but didn't.

The sample size for relief pitchers in May is so small that large gaps between FIP and ERA can be the result of just a few plays.

[BradyBunch]

For it being "blatant" how many times has Matusz going to his forearm been mentioned in game threads?

He always does it. Just cause it's not mentioned.. most of the time you don't think about it. It's why it's called a "ritual". O'Day's (wrists) and Miggy's (hat) have "rituals" and it's not talked about in the game thread either. So your point is moot.

Tillman, Ubaldo and the whole staff has their "ritual". Haven't noticed one with Wright yet but I'll watch last night's game again and see if I pick up on one.

[Can_of_corn]

He always does it. Just cause it's not mentioned.. most of the time you don't think about it. It's why it's called a "ritual". O'Day's (wrists) and Miggy's (hat) have "rituals" and it's not talked about in the game thread either. So your point is moot.

Tillman, Ubaldo and the whole staff has their "ritual". Haven't noticed one with Wright yet but I'll watch last night's game again and see if I pick up on one.

That was exactly the point I was making.

If he was blatant in his actions it would have been remarked upon. His "tic" is about the same as every other guy's. He didn't have pine tar on his neck or green glowing crap all over his arm. He was operating at the level that, before last night, was deemed an acceptable rules violation.

Basically he was pulled over for going 50 in a 45.

[BradyBunch]

That was exactly the point I was making.

If he was blatant in his actions it would have been remarked upon. His "tic" is about the same as every other guy's. He didn't have pine tar on his neck or green glowing crap all over his arm. He was operating at the level that, before last night, was deemed an acceptable rules violation.

Basically he was pulled over for going 50 in a 45.

He wasn't really blatant last night. Rather it only appeared like that after Fox figured it out after the complaint. Jennings is a manager struggling for a win and need something to go right for him. He saw an "easy target". Knowing damn well his own pitcher was using as well (who btw cleaned his stuff off before the start of the next inning). Jennings needed to do it because he looks like a floundering Marlin.

[malkusm]

Not really.. O'day does the rub his wrist area again and again then the ball.. Miggy puts his fingers to the same spot on his brim of his hat. Then you got the Bucholz who is obvious as well. Every pitcher has "ritual" they do before they pitch. Matusz is touching his forearm. 99.99% nobody will say anything over what Matusz did. Will Smith was obviously showing his aid so he got called out.. What Dan Jennings did shows how he is in way over his head. Also shows he hasn't managed a day in his life past highschool. Marlins are gonna regret being that stupid and appointing him.

This is kind of what I was getting at. What struck me was that McFarland relieved Matusz, and went through his normal routine of touching his arm, his cap, his glove, back to his cap, before taking the rubber. Everyone has some sort of routine. When I pitched I had a habit of touching my cap with my throwing hand just to readjust the cap - never had anything up there, just a routine.

I think a lot of guys have routines, and maybe half of them are using something to get a better grip on the ball. By the logic of "he keeps touching his arm" you could rightly ask the umpire to investigate most guys. Half the time you'd be right.

[Can_of_corn]

He wasn't really blatant last night. Rather it only appeared like that after Fox figured it out after the complaint. Jennings is a manager struggling for a win and need something to go right for him. He saw an "easy target". Knowing damn well his own pitcher was using as well (who btw cleaned his stuff off before the start of the next inning). Jennings needed to do it because he looks like a floundering Marlin.

We still are not disagreeing.

[SeaBird]

Watching a video of it on MLBN made it obvious to me that he was doing something that seemed odd. He repeatedly kept touching the same area of his forearm with the fingers of his pitching hand. It wasn’t as if he was scratching an itch on his arm or kneading/massaging his arm. Like Farrell said after the Pineda incident last year, it’s usually something teams will not call out each other on; but when it becomes obvious you have to say something.

Jennings: "We saw a substance. We saw something shining on his arm. So we watched him a couple of pitches to see how many times he went to it. So I went out and I asked home umpire Jordan (Baker) to check it. Crew chief Paul Emmel asked me if I wanted to check. I said, 'Yes.' So he checked, and by their opinion there was something there, a foreign substance, and they made their decision.

[BradyBunch]

On one hand, you say Matusz wasn't obvious and Jennings is in way over his head. On the other hand, the guy in way over his head saw what Matusz was doing pretty easily.

Two things.. 1) Matusz didn't do anything different then what he does every day he pitches.

2) Every manager and player knows it's happening they all see it and they are fine with it. Jennings didn't see anything out of norm, he just doesn't know the code and is struggling as a manager. He needed a win of some kind. So he broke the code. Don't be surprised if a Marlins pitcher gets called out at some point this year because of Jennings breaking the code.

[BradyBunch]

Watching a video of it on MLBN made it obvious to me that he was doing something that seemed odd. He repeatedly kept touching the same area of his forearm with the fingers of his pitching hand. It wasn’t as if he was scratching an itch on his arm or kneading/massaging his arm. Like Farrell said after the Pineda incident last year, it’s usually something teams will not call out each other on; but when it becomes obvious you have to say something.

Jennings: "We saw a substance. We saw something shining on his arm. So we watched him a couple of pitches to see how many times he went to it. So I went out and I asked home umpire Jordan (Baker) to check it. Crew chief Paul Emmel asked me if I wanted to check. I said, 'Yes.' So he checked, and by their opinion there was something there, a foreign substance, and they made their decision.

If the TV in HD broadcast doesn't show anything obvious.. Jennings broke the code and He's doing a CYA.

[SeaBird]

Sorry I meant was the appearance of the substance itself blatant. I should have been more clear.

During Sunday's game Palmer spoke about Matusz and said, "If you're going to do that, don't be so blatant about it. Put it on your uniform or on your hat". So Palmer thought it was in fact "blatant".

[DrungoHazewood]

You know, for me, this sort of begs the question:

If a very large percentage of pitchers use a grip-purposed (not movement-purposed) foreign substance on their arm or cap, and the vast majority of players & managers like it that way (see Buck's comments on his preference for opposing pitchers to have a good grip on the ball), why doesn't MLB approve something for this purpose and be done with it? It doesn't have to be any different than using a Rosen bag.

Outlawing this and suspending pitchers for it is just silly when it seems so widely accepted of a practice.

Baseball is generally slow to change.

I agree either make something legal or inspect every pitcher that takes the mound. Preferably the former since it seems like the opposing hitters don't mind.

Baseball is also fond of letting de facto rules stand for a long time, until it bites them in the butt. The Merkle incident being the biggest - where many/most of the players said he was doing what players did all the time, and in fact someone had done just a few weeks before, but this time the umps decided to play by the as-written rules. Can you imagine if everyone was allowed to use sunscreen or whatever to get a better grip on the ball all year, just so long as it wasn't obvious, and then someone gets tossed from a key game with playoff implications? That's what would push MLB to take explicit action.