Orioles interested in Justin Upton, others

[25 Nuggets]

Yeah, that's true with respect to Crawford. That was a horrible signing. But Adrian Gonzalez was a good player and a good contract.

That's why he went to LA. Adrian was the main get, but the cost was taking on most of Crawford's contract (minus $11 million), and to a lesser extent Josh Beckett.

[BohKnowsBmore]

Casey Stern and Jim Bowden said on their MLB Network Radio show today that the Orioles should trade Gausman for Carlos Gomez. No other names discussed.

Stern, of course, also said the Yankees could go to the World Series without making any moves. At the same time, he said of the O's, "an Orioles team that is not that good but somehow still finds itself in the race."

Those two are complete jokers.

[Stotle]

I'll save you the time. The Red Sox have a miserable track record of developing pitchers since 2011. Their development of position players hasn't been much better much better. But yeah they do have plenty money for free agents and at least haven't buried themselves too badly with 10 year 250 million dollar deals.

Well, I looked.

Top 10 pitching prospects since 2011 for Boston:

2012 (after 2011 season)

Anthony Ranaudo (4)

Matt Barnes (8)

2013 (after 2012 season)

Matt Barnes (3)

Allan Webster (4)

Henry Owens (5)

2014 (after 2013 season)

Henry Owns (2)

Allen Webster (4)

Brandon Workman (8)

Matt Barnes (9)

Trey Ball (10)

2015 (after 2014 season)

Henry Owns (2)

Eduardo Rodriguez (4)

Brian Johnson (5)

Matt Barnes (8)

So, in the aggregate:

Henry Owens - currently at Triple-A (23 y.o. today -- happy birthday!)

Eduardo Rodriguez - rookie at MLB level (22 y.o. as of April)

Brian Johnson - making MLB debut today I believe? (turned 24 this off-season)

Matt Barnes - has been used 30+ innings in relief at MLB level (turned 25 in June)

All four with solid to impressive numbers leading-up to limited (or no) MLB experience.

Brandon Workman - Currently on 60 day DL (elbow) (27 this August)

Solid to impressive numbers leading-up to MLB experience; unimpressive over his 130 innings as starter/reliever.

Anthony Ranaudo - Now with Rangers (26 y.o. in August)

Allan Webster - Now with Diamondbacks (25 y.o. as of February)

Both were solid in MiLB leading to very bad combined 150 IP between them at MLB level for Boston.

Trey Ball - Currently in High A having meh season (21 y.o. as of June)

Total of 205 IP in professional career.

That's your evidence that the Red Sox are horrible at producing homegrown arms since 2011 season. Four guys who we really have little to go on, an injured arm with 120 innings of MLB experience, two guys that never stuck in Boston and were "okay" at the upper levels, and a 2013 draftee in his second full season.

I don't know that any of that group projected to the front-end, though Owens had his believers (I have been a mid-rotation upside guy for him). Maybe Webster, but I honestly don't remember him in his amateur days. The rest were pretty roundly considered mid-rotation type arms if they hit.

[weams]

Yeah, that's true with respect to Crawford. That was a horrible signing. But Adrian Gonzalez was a good player and a good contract.

Josh Beckett

[Stotle]

And the Dodgers new (make a splash, be bold!) billionaire owners bailed them out so they could compete for one last season. The End.

There are certainly those who believe Cherrington will not be around to see another competitive season in Boston, that's for sure.

[CA-ORIOLE]

That's why he went to LA. Adrian was the main get, but the cost was taking on most of Crawford's contract (minus $11 million), and to a lesser extent Josh Beckett.

Yeah, understand.

[25 Nuggets]

Casey Stern and Jim Bowden said on their MLB Network Radio show today that the Orioles should trade Gausman for Carlos Gomez. No other names discussed.

Um, no.

Stern, of course, also said the Yankees could go to the World Series without making any moves. At the same time, he said of the O's, "an Orioles team that is not that good but somehow still finds itself in the race."

(a) yes the Yankees could go to the World Series as constructed; they're in first place in the division and the playoffs are a crap shoot.

(b) the Orioles are barely above average --i.e. not that good -- and yes they're still in the race because most teams still are.

So, he's right about those things, really.

[weams]

Casey Stern and Jim Bowden said on their MLB Network Radio show today that the Orioles should trade Gausman for Carlos Gomez. No other names discussed.

Stern, of course, also said the Yankees could go to the World Series without making any moves. At the same time, he said of the O's, "an Orioles team that is not that good but somehow still finds itself in the race."

Stern is an idiot. And a HUGE Yankee bandwagoner.

[weams]

There are certainly those who believe Cherrington will not be around to see another competitive season in Boston, that's for sure.

Me included. The brains all went to Chicago.

[Stotle]

Orioles top ten pitching prospects during same time (for comparison)

2012 (after 2011 season)

Dylan Bundy (1)

Parker Bridwell (4)

Dan Klein (10)

2013 (after 2012 season)

Dylan Bundy (1)

Kevin Gausman (2)

Eduardo Rodriguez (5)

Mike Wright (8)

Branden Kline (9)

2014 (after 2013 season)

Dylan Bundy (1)

Kevin Gausman (2)

Eduardo Rodriguez (3)

Hunter Harvey (4)

Tim Berry (6)

Mike Wright (8)

2015 (after 2014 season)

Dylan Bundy (1)

Kevin Gausman (2)

Hunter Harvey (3)

Zach Davies (6)

Tim Berry (7)

Mike Wright (8)

[CA-ORIOLE]

Well, I looked.

Top 10 pitching prospects since 2011 for Boston:

2012 (after 2011 season)

Anthony Ranaudo (4)

Matt Barnes (8)

2013 (after 2012 season)

Matt Barnes (3)

Allan Webster (4)

Henry Owens (5)

2014 (after 2013 season)

Henry Owns (2)

Allen Webster (4)

Brandon Workman (8)

Matt Barnes (9)

Trey Ball (10)

2015 (after 2014 season)

Henry Owns (2)

Eduardo Rodriguez (4)

Brian Johnson (5)

Matt Barnes (8)

So, in the aggregate:

That's your evidence that the Red Sox are horrible at producing homegrown arms since 2011 season. Four guys who we really have little to go on, an injured arm with 120 innings of MLB experience, two guys that never stuck in Boston and were "okay" at the upper levels, and a 2013 draftee in his second full season.

I don't know that any of that group projected to the front-end, though Owens had his believers (I have been a mid-rotation upside guy for him). Maybe Webster, but I honestly don't remember him in his amateur days. The rest were pretty roundly considered mid-rotation type arms if they hit.

My evidence? Have they produced any decent homegrown arms (or even an arm from another team not an established FA) since 2011? No, they haven't. Andrew Miller is probably their best success story. Considering their pitching track record the past two years couldn't hey have used them? What you're going to say it's because they've developed great position players instead? Please spare me, particiularly in any comparison to denigrating our organization. Admit it, the Red Sox have made horrible decisions one after another and haven't really developed squat. The only advantage they have over us is gobs of money, most of it spent stupidly. People should be getting fired or stepping down in that organization.

[Stotle]

My evidence? Have they produced any decent homegrown arms (or even an arm from another team not an established FA) since 2011? No, they haven't. Andrew Miller is probably their best success story. Considering their pitching track record the past two years couldn't hey have used them? What you're going to say it's because they've developed great position players instead? Please spare me, particiularly in any comparison to denigrating our organization. Admit it, the Red Sox have made horrible decisions one after another and haven't really developed squat. The only advantage they have over us is gobs of money, most of it spent stupidly. People should be getting fired or stepping down in that organization.

I don't have a retort because this is all non-sensical. Boston's rotation has been Lester, Buchholz, Beckett, Lackey, Matsuzaka, Peavy, etc.

Workman got a good shot at it and fell flat in his first opportunity at the rotation, then went on the DL. Rodriguez has been pretty solid in his first go at it but who knows how it ultimately shakes out. Barnes has been used exclusively in relief; I assume he could get a shot at the rotation next year but probably depends on what else they have. Owens has yet to be promoted to MLB and has back-slid some from a command/control standpoint this year.

The Red Sox have traded talent (e.g. Anthony Rizzo, Josh Reddick, Casey Kelly *injury issues*, Jose Iglesias) from the 2011 farm system to try and supplement the big league team -- that talent, which they developed (all but Kelly reaching MLB before trading), has produced around 30 wins worth of value at the major league level.

I can buy Boston as having made bad decisions (particularly last year or two), but to call it a bad organization for acquiring and developing talent is just asinine.

EDIT -- Not denigrated Baltimore's development at all. I don't think there is anything "off" about Baltimore's collection/development given what they have had in place. Maybe you expect Gausman to have been given a full-time role by now considering collegiate arm selected in top 5 in 2012, but no one else could be pointed at and argued they are dramatically and disappointingly underperforming. I'm consistent in how I view both orgs in their efforts, I think.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I don't have a retort because this is all non-sensical. Boston's rotation has been Lester, Buchholz, Beckett, Lackey, Matsuzaka, Peavy, etc.

Workman got a good shot at it and fell flat in his first opportunity at the rotation, then went on the DL. Rodriguez has been pretty solid in his first go at it but who knows how it ultimately shakes out. Barnes has been used exclusively in relief; I assume he could get a shot at the rotation next year but probably depends on what else they have. Owens has yet to be promoted to MLB and has back-slid some from a command/control standpoint this year.

The Red Sox have traded talent (e.g. Anthony Rizzo, Josh Reddick, Casey Kelly *injury issues*, Jose Iglesias) from the 2011 farm system to try and supplement the big league team -- that talent, which they developed (all but Kelly reaching MLB before trading), has produced around 30 wins worth of value at the major league level.

I can buy Boston as having made bad decisions (particularly last year or two), but to call it a bad organization for acquiring and developing talent is just asinine.

EDIT -- Not denigrated Baltimore's development at all. I don't think there is anything "off" about Baltimore's collection/development given what they have had in place. Maybe you expect Gausman to have been given a full-time role by now considering collegiate arm selected in top 5 in 2012, but no one else could be pointed at and argued they are dramatically and disappointingly underperforming. I'm consistent in how I view both orgs in their efforts, I think.

I think it comes out a bit differently quite frankly.

We've been through a lot of this before. Boston was able acquire a lot of talent under the old system that they were able to game by acquiring players midterm and letting them go to free agency. The new system has leveled the playing field quite a bit. Hype aside, their record (pitching and position prospects) since 2011 speaks for itself and it's not a very good one. Aside from that BOS has made a series of horrible signings, miscalculations and poor decisions these past couple years that should be enough to get any GM fired imo.

[25 Nuggets]

The Red Sox have traded talent (e.g. Anthony Rizzo, Josh Reddick, Casey Kelly *injury issues*, Jose Iglesias) from the 2011 farm system to try and supplement the big league team -- that talent, which they developed (all but Kelly reaching MLB before trading), has produced around 30 wins worth of value at the major league level.

I can buy Boston as having made bad decisions (particularly last year or two), but to call it a bad organization for acquiring and developing talent is just asinine.

You can add players they didn't trade like Xander Boegarts, Mookie Betts and Daniel Nava (17 more WAR combined). Plus Jackie Bradley is tearing it up in AAA. It does however appear to be all on the positional side.

[Stotle]

I think it comes out a bit differently quite frankly.

We've been through a lot of this before. Boston was able acquire a lot of talent under the old system that they were able to game by acquiring players midterm and letting them go to free agency. The new system has leveled the playing field quite a bit. Hyoe aside, their record (pitching and position prospects) since 2011 speaks for itself and it's not a very good one. Aside from that BOS has made a series of horrible signings, miscalculations and poor decisions these past couple years that should be enough to get any GM fired imo.

Yeah, I don't know. I guess we will have a much better idea by the end of 2016, when we see whether Swihart, Betts, Bogaerts, Owens, Rodriguez, Johnson, Barnes, etc. are likely to be useful major leaguers. I would assume all of them will have gotten some significant playing time by then. I think it's a very talented system, particularly in the low minors, but that's just one person's opinion.