The Implosion of 2015

[Ohfan67]

I think if you look, all the folks who could not be removed, were.

The organization still seems focused on a few wins now instead of a long-term strategy. The organization still has a weak minor league system. The level of nasty disfunction may be lower and I definitely believe that Showalter and some others are major upgrades from years past, but in terms of the focus of the organization the goals seem pretty similar. Mid-level budget, win as many games as possible, with a penchant for overestimating where the club is in terms of development and trajectory, etc.

[Ohfan67]

I really dislike laying this at PA's feet. There was a period between 1998 and 2001 when the Os had something like 14 first round and supplemental first round picks and all we basically got out of it was trading Werth and BRob - plus Bedard as a sixth rounder. PA has invested plenty of $ in draft picks - the fact is the picks have largely stunk. The lack of productive draft picks lays at the feet of the scouting directors and the GMs who hiredthem.

Of course, when it comes to international talent acquisition, PA hires his type of guys and guys who preach baseball talent acquisition that is in line with what PA believes. PA, however, is no dummy. If a credible case can be made for spending $ appropriately internationally, my expectation is that PA would get on board. PA understands the value of Schoop and the value of EdRod and I expect his reaction is "let's get more of the same". Perhaps not, but if the tight-fisted, value oriented teams like the As, Twins and Rays can find so much $ to spend internationally, then it is a failure of some senior baseball officials in our organization to not convince the owner to spend appropriately here.

Our current GM had the resources in the organization and in draft picks to compete in the AL East the past few years AND have the team in better shape going forward than where we actually are today. The current predicament is not the owner's fault and .... posts claiming our owner has not put the $ into building a strong farm system are inaccurate IMO.

You make many good points, but I am not whining about money (well, the facilities issue lingered forever and part of that seemed about money). I am talking about focus of the organization, etc. I have never complained about Angelos not spending enough money...in fact, I think a big reason why the O's suffered for a long time was because Angelos had trouble committing to a complete rebuild and was too willing to overpay for wins (those poor-performing teams stocked with over-the-hill, extremely mediocre free agents were sickening). I know Weams believes that DD has full control, but I think there's a lot of evidence that suggests that he had a mandate to win as many games now. And I'm not necessarily saying that was a totally bad idea, I'm just saying I don't think this is totally DD's fault. Maybe the O's/DD/Angelos' saw that the O's were going to have a talent peak and wanted to take a chance when they had a shot (but stay within a mid-level payroll). There could be good economic reasons to do this (last year's run was worth a good bit of money to the O's). We definitely know that Angelos has refused to give up and trade away players at the deadline before. Why do we think he would have felt differently this year?

[tntoriole]

DD will need to hit it out of the park this winter to retain his job beyond 2016,imho. Another disaster like this winter and we will have a new GM. The real legacy problem for DD is going to be draining all the young pitching- Jake (likely to be Cy Young winner), Eduardo, Davies, Tarpley, Brault...if these turn out to be major league successes and all we have to show for it is.....absolutely nothing?. Well, fair or not, reasonable at the time or not, that is what causes teams to go back to the cellar for years and gets GMs fired.

[Redskins Rick]

DD will need to hit it out of the park this winter to retain his job beyond 2016,imho. Another disaster like this winter and we will have a new GM. The real legacy problem for DD is going to be draining all the young pitching- Jake (likely to be Cy Young winner), Eduardo, Davies, Tarpley, Brault...if these turn out to be major league successes and all we have to show for it is.....absolutely nothing?. Well, fair or not, reasonable at the time or not, that is what causes teams to go back to the cellar for years and gets GMs fired.

I refuse to fault DD for Jake inability to pitch as an Oriole.

[weams]

I refuse to fault DD for Jake inability to pitch as an Oriole.

There were many times that I would have preferred Daniel Cabrera, Radhames Liz, or Brian Matusz starting than have Jake out there.

[Redskins Rick]

There were many times that I would have preferred Daniel Cabrera, Radhames Liz, or Brian Matusz starting than have Jake out there.

I like Jake, and I am glad he fixed his issues.

It was time for a change, it wasn't working here for him, bottom line.

[hoosiers]

But back then some of it was Angelos. They lost the Rochester Red Wings because of a bad product. They took forever to find a real Spring Training home. The facilities were poor both for the major and minor leagues. They had to go to Ottawa and could have had a nice Triple A facility in Harrisburg but messed that up Thank God for Andy that they finally have a nice Spring Training facility.

When you say the Rochester team was poor, why do you blame ownership for that? Ownership invested in all those draft picks? It is the GM who is responsible for drafting quality prospects and fielding a good team. Isn't that obvious with the way DD has stuffed Norfolk with a mix of prospects and AAAA players who retain some upside to succeed or possible play at replacement level in the majors?

I would agree that the facilities were a reflection and responsibility of ownership, but as above I believe ownership did their part and invested appropriately in the product (acquiring amateur talent through the draft).

[hoosiers]

I like Jake, and I am glad he fixed his issues.

It was time for a change, it wasn't working here for him, bottom line.

Bottom line is we gave up a 5+ WAR pre-arbitration pitcher for basically a nobody. IMO, it raises a few questions about development, coaching, and talent evaluation when Jake - five weeks removed from "wasn't working here for him" - produces about 1.4 WAR in only 9 starts at the major league level to finish the season.

[Tx Oriole]

I refuse to fault DD for Jake inability to pitch as an Oriole.

I agree with you.

[Redskins Rick]

Bottom line is we gave up a 5+ WAR pre-arbitration pitcher for basically a nobody. IMO, it raises a few questions about development, coaching, and talent evaluation when Jake - five weeks removed from "wasn't working here for him" - produces about 1.4 WAR in only 9 starts at the major league level to finish the season.

We did not give up a 5+ WAR pitcher.

His WAR here was pretty dismal and was on the negative side for his final two seasons.

NOBODY, not one person, shed a tear when he left.

Feldman is not a nobody and he pitched opening day this season for the Astro's.

[hoosiers]

We did not give up a 5+ WAR pitcher.

His WAR here was pretty dismal and was on the negative side for his final two seasons.

NOBODY, not one person, shed a tear when he left.

Feldman is not a nobody and he pitched opening day this season for the Astro's.

Ok. I think it is pretty clear we gave up a 5 WAR pitcher. I think Joe Jordan believes he drafted a quality pitcher. I think the Cubs are happy we traded him.

[Redskins Rick]

Ok. I think it is pretty clear we gave up a 5 WAR pitcher. I think Joe Jordan believes he drafted a quality pitcher. I think the Cubs are happy we traded him.

He pitched 51 innings for the Cubs in 2013 and went 9-9 and was only a .7 WAR pitcher.

It wasn't until 2014 that he became what he is now.

So how is that very clear?

[Il BuonO]

We did not give up a 5+ WAR pitcher.

His WAR here was pretty dismal and was on the negative side for his final two seasons.

NOBODY, not one person, shed a tear when he left.

Feldman is not a nobody and he pitched opening day this season for the Astro's.

Speaking in hyperbole isn't making your point. There are plenty of people here with experience in the the game and otherwise who disagree with your narrow view.

Evidence has been presented ad nauseum regarding his peripherals and you continue to ignore it, so be it. Again, your opinion is he wasn't missed when he was traded. It's not everyone's.

[Redskins Rick]

Speaking in hyperbole isn't making your point. There are plenty of people here with experience in the the game and otherwise who disagree with your narrow view.

Evidence has been presented ad nauseum regarding his peripherals and you continue to ignore it, so be it. Again, your opinion is he wasn't missed when he was traded. It's not everyone's.

Can you show me one article from MASN or the Baltimore Sun, written in that time frame, that took the Orioles to task for trading away such a stud?

[Il BuonO]

Can you show me one article from MASN or the Baltimore Sun, written in that time frame, that took the Orioles to task for trading away such a stud?

So, the local media is the means by which all trades shall be measured? It's not what we were talking about and still doesn't make your point.