Big Shock: D.C. a bad baseball town

[mojmann]

You have no idea how much I was praying for that to be a Boswell column...

I know what you mean, brother.

[Frobby]

There were other options.

But were there better options?

The Nats are a well-run organization and when they start to win attendance will improve. Until then, it isn't like the attendance there is a disaster. And I'd be pretty hard-pressed to say they have affected the Orioles' attendance much, as Baltimore attendance last year was only about 275,000 below what it was in 2003 despite 4 more years of losing.

[crawdad]

DC will be fine. Their problems back in the day do not mirror the issues now. What hurts them now?

1) Stadium location . . . it will be excellent in 10 years, but right now it is a headache.

2) Lack of corporate presence . . . corporations are invested in other sports and teams.

3) Sharing territory with an established team . . . your peripheral fans will come when the weather is nice and the team is doing well. Your dedicated fans always come. People who would be likely to be dedicated fans are probably Orioles fans. Why would they switch? They won't. DC needs 5-10 years to develop its own base. It probably won't be in full swing for 15 years or so.

4) Ticket pricing . . . tickets cost way too much there. They tried to pull in money from a big first season at the new stadium, but seem to forget that they are still trying to win fans over.

These issues did not destroy them back in the day. Back in the day they were hurt by Washington's crumbling infrastructure and poor owner decisions. Honestly, it seems a lot of the DC hate is some sort of a Baltimore thing I do not understand. And, in case there is some confusion, I am from Baltimore and only cheer for the O's.

[mojmann]

DC hate is some sort of a Baltimore thing I do not understand.

Let me fill you in .... it's fun!

[Frobby]

DC will be fine. Their problems back in the day do not mirror the issues now. What hurts them now?

1) Stadium location . . . it will be excellent in 10 years, but right now it is a headache.

2) Lack of corporate presence . . . corporations are invested in other sports and teams.

3) Sharing territory with an established team . . . your peripheral fans will come when the weather is nice and the team is doing well. Your dedicated fans always come. People who would be likely to be dedicated fans are probably Orioles fans. Why would they switch? They won't. DC needs 5-10 years to develop its own base. It probably won't be in full swing for 15 years or so.

4) Ticket pricing . . . tickets cost way too much there. They tried to pull in money from a big first season at the new stadium, but seem to forget that they are still trying to win fans over.

These issues did not destroy them back in the day. Back in the day they were hurt by Washington's crumbling infrastructure and poor owner decisions. Honestly, it seems a lot of the DC hate is some sort of a Baltimore thing I do not understand. And, in case there is some confusion, I am from Baltimore and only cheer for the O's.

Also, don't underestimate the impact of the rather gloomy economy right now, both at the corporate level (expense account trimming) and the personal level (when it costs $200 to take family of 4 to a game and feed them, there are a lot of families who can't afford that right now).

I wonder how attendance is elsewhere?

[frankpembleton]

Big shock: In both Baltimore and in Washington, it is tough to get people to go out and watch a losing team. Especially in April when it is cold and school is in session.

And before you say "but they should be drawing for the new park like Baltimore did!" I think a lot of time has gone by between when OPACY and this one opened, and a lot of parks have been opened. The novelty of a new park in and of itself is not a draw anymore, especially in a joint-market where people have already experienced a new park.

The most likely outcome is that both Baltimore and Washington will thrive if they can put a competitive product on the field. If that is the biggest mistake in MLB history, MLB is in for a pretty good century!

This wasn't the case in Baltimore where it took about 7 years of losing baseball before season attendance dipped below even 2.5 million. Baltimore has and will support a loser. The city will not support a loser for 10 years in a row. No city will support a loser for 10 years in a row - not Boston, not Chicago, not St. Louis.

DC attendance is pathetic for a new team and a new stadium n a metropolitan area of over 5 million...

The team will survive though, there is too much money in the DC area for it not to. The stadium should have been put in Alexandria though - I think it was a mistake putting it in DC.

[mojmann]

Also, don't underestimate the impact of the rather gloomy economy right now, both at the corporate level (expense account trimming) and the personal level (when it costs $200 to take family of 4 to a game and feed them, there are a lot of families who can't afford that right now).

I wonder how attendance is elsewhere?

Come on, my friend. Without any hyperbole, let me say this: It truly is troubling that there is not a sense of "I must see this new stadium" in Washington right now. Don't you think?

It truly is perplexing. And I think it really does speak to D.C. as a baseball town. If they go on an extended, muti-year tear of winning seasons, it may survive quite nicely like another notoriously bad baseball town -- Atlanta.

If they struggle for years, it could get ugly.

[mweb]

I have a 14 month old. How do you expect me to get sleep?

Moj you are correct it makes no sense to rehash old arguments, especially ones concerning how crummy the Portland market was and how Charlotte was not willing to build a stadium or how Las Vegas would lead to the end of the world because it would be near gambling. Or arguments about how every team that has moved or been created has gone into a team's existing market.

I will say again that it is likely both teams will make it just fine, and the harping about attendance has more to do with Baltimore's inferiority complex than the franchise's long-term prospects. So again if this is the one of the biggest mistakes in MLB history... Members of the media are supposed to be above resorting to hyperbole.

Good post. I was hoping the team would have moved to Vegas(so it didn't affect the O's and so I could go to some games there), but I don't think it was a horrible decision by any means to go to DC.

[Mad Mark]

With the antitrust exemption possibly on the line, there was never a chance the Expos were going to land anywhere other than DC.

But I never understood the decision to put the stadium in a location served only by the Green Line. Right now, there's no place to go before or after a game w/in immediate walking distance of the park. And the weather--especially on weekends--has left much to be desired this year.

Overall, it looks like DC is going to be a lot like Atlanta--another football town that happens to have a baseball team: not a tough ticket.

[mojmann]

Overall, it looks like DC is going to be a lot like Atlanta--another football town that happens to have a baseball team: not a tough ticket.

Atlanta's not even a football town. I've been to a half-empty Georgia Dome for a few Falcons games.

[CrimsonTribe]

Atlanta's not even a football town. I've been to a half-empty Georgia Dome for a few Falcons games.

College football my friend. Pro football is a few steps above arena football to many in the Deep South.

[DrungoHazewood]

Big shock: In both Baltimore and in Washington, it is tough to get people to go out and watch a losing team. Especially in April when it is cold and school is in session.

And before you say "but they should be drawing for the new park like Baltimore did!" I think a lot of time has gone by between when OPACY and this one opened, and a lot of parks have been opened. The novelty of a new park in and of itself is not a draw anymore, especially in a joint-market where people have already experienced a new park.

The most likely outcome is that both Baltimore and Washington will thrive if they can put a competitive product on the field. If that is the biggest mistake in MLB history, MLB is in for a pretty good century!

Agree 100%. Show me a market where you'd draw 40,000 a game to see a losing team play in 40 degree weather, with or without the novelty of the league's 19th mallpark.

What were the other options besides DC? Portland? Las Vegas? San Antonio? Put a gun to Steinbrenner's head and force a team into New Jersey? All of those options besides NY had metro areas a tiny fraction of DC's, with lower average incomes and no existing major league stadium.

If and when the O's and the Nats are good they'll both see above-average attendance.

[DrungoHazewood]

If they struggle for years, it could get ugly.

You mean as ugly as 11,000 for every weekday game in April?

I'd like someone to show me a town that would show up in mass to see a bad team in cold weather in midweek. No, 1995 Cleveland and Baltimore don't count - new stadiums aren't a big draw anymore. Just ask the Tigers, who drew like crap to their new park until they started winning. Now Detroit is magically a great baseball town.

[BaltimoreTerp]

You mean as ugly as 11,000 for every weekday game in April?

I'd like someone to show me a town that would show up in mass to see a bad team in cold weather in midweek. No, 1995 Cleveland and Baltimore don't count - new stadiums aren't a big draw anymore. Just ask the Tigers, who drew like crap to their new park until they started winning. Now Detroit is magically a great baseball town.

See: Burgh, Pitts.

[mojmann]

You mean as ugly as 11,000 for every weekday game in April?

I'd like someone to show me a town that would show up in mass to see a bad team in cold weather in midweek. No, 1995 Cleveland and Baltimore don't count - new stadiums aren't a big draw anymore. Just ask the Tigers, who drew like crap to their new park until they started winning. Now Detroit is magically a great baseball town.

This is the first new sports facility in D.C. since the MCI Center -- and they can only get 20,000 per game IN THE FIRST WEEK. This is a metro area of 5 million people.

No offense, but I can't believe that anyone is arguing that this is not a bad sign for the long-term future of the Nationals.