Pitch framing matters

[Finisher]

Martin is one of the best I've seen at pulling the low pitches up into the zone without being too obvious about it. Personally, I think Wieters gets too much criticism here for his pitch framing, but I do think Martin is outstanding and gives the Blue Jays an edge over most other teams in that regard.

Totally agree here and I think someone like Martin shows again and again it does make a difference.

[SteveA]

Part of the issue I have with folks trying to model the effects of framing is exactly that. I don't think there is a truly accurate way to differentiate why a call is made.

But does the why matter? Aren't there enough pitches to generate a sample size that says this particular catcher makes a difference? Whether it's because of his framing, or because he likes to chat up the umpire and remembers the umps' kids birthdays, I don't care.

[Ori-Al]

He meant, the 3-1 pitch to Wieters should have been ball four and Wieters should have been on first base, as a baserunner. He was not talking about Wieters becoming a first baseman.

That 3-1 pitch was way outside, and should have been ball four, but that didn't mean he then had to swing at a pitch that hit the dirt next. The umpire didn't call any of those as strikes during the game, which didn't stop our hitters from swinging at them, including fanning thrice on would-have-been ball fours.

[Can_of_corn]

But does the why matter? Aren't there enough pitches to generate a sample size that says this particular catcher makes a difference? Whether it's because of his framing, or because he likes to chat up the umpire and remembers the umps' kids birthdays, I don't care.

We know, for a fact, that a borderline pitch is more likely to be called a strike on a 3-0 than it is 0-2 or even 0-0. I'm guessing the strike zone increases in size on away day games, or when a game might be called on account of rain. We know that certain pitchers and hitters get calls that less accomplished players don't.

If you can't corral all the factors and determine how much a difference the catcher is making you risk invalidating the data.

There is a tremendous amount of noise that must be accounted for.

[SteveA]

We know, for a fact, that a borderline pitch is more likely to be called a strike on a 3-0 than it is 0-2 or even 0-0. I'm guessing the strike zone increases in size on away day games, or when a game might be called on account of rain. We know that certain pitchers and hitters get calls that less accomplished players don't.

If you can't corral all the factors and determine how much a difference the catcher is making you risk invalidating the data.

There is a tremendous amount of noise that must be accounted for.

Good points.

[Ruzious]

I don't think it was a case of pitch-framing last night. I think it was just a case of an ump being really bad in a playoff game.

[SteveA]

I don't think it was a case of pitch-framing last night. I think it was just a case of an ump being really bad in a playoff game.

I don't know too much about Cederstrom's rep, other than that he is supposed to be a bit of a pitcher's ump.

But I was happy when I heard he would do our game, because

1) I had heard his name for years so I knew he wasn't a vet

2) I didn't recall ever hearing any controversy or negativity about him noting him as a bad umpire

3) He isn't one of the guys that I KNOW to be a bad plate ump (Hernandez, Bucknor, etc)

So I was at least hopeful we'd get a well called game. His zone was definitely a bit on the big side, and it sure seemed bigger for Toronto pitchers over the course of the game.

[Frobby]

That 3-1 pitch was way outside, and should have been ball four, but that didn't mean he then had to swing at a pitch that hit the dirt next. The umpire didn't call any of those as strikes during the game, which didn't stop our hitters from swinging at them, including fanning thrice on would-have-been ball fours.

It was very frustrating, but I think you underrate the difficulty of laying off a breaking pitch with two strikes. You're in protect mode and have a split-second to determine if it's a fastball that is going to hit the lower part of the zone or a breaking pitch that is going to hit the dirt. It looks real simple on TV, but it is much harder in reality. Make the wrong determination and you look silly. And some guys are better able to do it than others. It's a skill.