Still Need OF Help - Pagan?

[FanSince88]

19 hours ago, Number5 said:

I remain puzzled at the amount of support Pagan enjoys on this board.  For the life of me, I just don't get it.

Angel Pagan turns 36 in July.  He doesn't hit LHP well at all.  He isn't a good answer for the short side of a platoon.  I see no reason to play him over Jones, Smith, Kim, or Trumbo vs. RHP, so his decent hitting side would be wasted on the bench in Baltimore, unless you would want to sit one of the other better-hitting guys.  He hasn't been a plus defensive outfielder since 2010, and has been substandard in the majority of the past six years defensively.  He has shown that he really can't be counted on to stay healthy and on the field.  His most games played he has managed in the past four seasons is 133 games, and in 2 of those seasons he was below 100.  And his salary history makes me think he may cost more than a lot of people expect.  Please tell me how Pagan is a fit for the Orioles.  I'm really not seeing what he brings to the table.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/paganan01.shtml

I like Pagan, but you're right, the only way you could make room for him on the roster vs RHP would be to bench one of Jones/Smith/Kim/Trumbo vs RHP, and I don't know why you would want to do that.  Pagan stunk against lefties last year (though his career splits are more even), and he's still likely to get at least $6 million a year.  It would be a huge waste of his talents to pick him up and only start him vs lefties (and presumably use him as a late-inning defensive replacement or pinch hitter for Kim/Smith).  

If you really wanted to be a contortionist, you could in theory bench Hardy, shift Manny to short, CD to third, and Trumbo to first vs RHP with Smith/Jones/Pagan in the outfield.  But there's no way in hell I see Buck doing something that odd (although it would be one heck of a murderer's row for RHP).  

I mean, if we can get him for 1/4, sure why not.  But it's the same principle as picking up Wieters -- nice to have but a bit redundant.  As with Wieters, someone else who needs him more than we do is likely to outbid us.  

[25 Nuggets]

Yes - with the signing of Trumbo, Pagan is no longer the best option for the team.  They can acquire a cheaper defense-first OF that can slide into the 5th OF / Nolan Reimold role.  They say they want another LH guy but I don't get that - a RH like Austin Jackson or Peter Bourjos makes more sense - but if they really want Michael Bourn back he is a similar kind of guy.

[FanSince88]

Desmond Jennings would be the only FA outfielder I would seriously consider at this point.  

RH hitting, rakes against lefties, elite defender in left field, capable of backing up Jones in CF.  

Would be a nice additional piece if we can pick him up for 1/5.  Boot Rickard to AAA, and still have room for Tavarez in theory if you're willing to start Mancini at AAA.

[25 Nuggets]

39 minutes ago, FanSince88 said:

Desmond Jennings would be the only FA outfielder I would seriously consider at this point.  

RH hitting, rakes against lefties, elite defender in left field, capable of backing up Jones in CF.  

Would be a nice additional piece if we can pick him up for 1/5.  Boot Rickard to AAA, and still have room for Tavarez in theory if you're willing to start Mancini at AAA.

Agreed, they should be taking a good look at Jennings.

.264/.346/.431 vs LHP in his career.

[esmd]

His splits last year were horrible against LHP, he was significantly better against RHP (comparitively speaking - overall he stunk).  Wonder why the dropoff last year?  Was he playing hurt or something?  He hit .203 in 133AB's against LHP.  His OBP was only .296, with a .672 OPS and RHP.  Against LHP, He hit .194 in 67AB's against LHP.  His OBP was only .250, with a .549 OPS.  Those are minor league deal numbers at best.  Worth an invite to ST at the most, IMO.

[FanSince88]

5 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

Agreed, they should be taking a good look at Jennings.

.264/.346/.431 vs RHP in his career.

 

5 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

Agreed, they should be taking a good look at Jennings.

.264/.346/.431 vs RHP in his career.

And your suggestion of Austin Jackson is a solid one too -- he's got even splits so you'd have more flexibility there, and he can play right field whereas it seems Jennings doesn't do that.  Bourjos is a peg down from Jackson/Jennings but as a last ditch dirt cheap option he could fit the bill late in ST if Rickard is really struggling or someone gets hurt.  

I just don't know why you wouldn't go with Tavarez over Bourn at this point.  They're both lefties so why not give the kid a chance?

[FanSince88]

4 minutes ago, esmd said:

His splits last year were horrible against LHP, he was significantly better against RHP (comparitively speaking - overall he stunk).  Wonder why the dropoff last year?  Was he playing hurt or something?  He hit .203 in 133AB's against LHP.  His OBP was only .296, with a .672 OPS and RHP.  Against LHP, He hit .194 in 67AB's against LHP.  His OBP was only .250, with a .549 OPS.  Those are minor league deal numbers at best.  Worth an invite to ST at the most, IMO.

Miniscule sample size, though -- he only had 72 AB vs lefties last year.  He hit .320 against lefties on the road in 2016 with 26 AB.  

And your guess is correct, he was an injury magnet last year.  http://www.tampabay.com/sports/baseball/rays/rays-give-up-on-multitalented-but-oft-injured-desmond-jennings/2291184

Still, for a defensive specialist you're looking to start maybe 2/3 times per week who has a history of success vs lefties on a team that needs help in that area, I'd give him a shot.  

Looks like he only was going to make $4 million this year anyway, which means that might be the ceiling on him.  I'd go for it if we can get him on a cheap deal.  

[Spy Fox]

Not sure how much he's been discussed, but Desmond Jennings is another guy who'd be an OK option for the extra outfield spot. 

Been a few years since he put together a good full season. But he has a .780 lifetime OPS against lefties, seemingly good defense, and could probably be had for extremely cheap. He's 30 instead of 36. I've generally advocated for Pagan, but starting to agree that there are probably other preferable options out there for a bit less. 

Edit: I see now that Jennings has already been brought up right above!

[Number5]

34 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

Yes - with the signing of Trumbo, Pagan is no longer the best option for the team.  They can acquire a cheaper defense-first OF that can slide into the 5th OF / Nolan Reimold role.  They say they want another LH guy but I don't get that - a RH like Austin Jackson or Peter Bourjos makes more sense - but if they really want Michael Bourn back he is a similar kind of guy.

I'm guessing Jennings and his agent have been holding out hopes for a MLB contract from some team.  My bet is, though, that he will end up with a MiLB contract with invite that provides a make-good MLB salary, which is the only type of deal that I'd be interested in for Jennings.  If so, you would think that the prospects of potentially starting one-third of the time and playing in OPACY would be attractive to him.

Austin Jackson is intriguing, but I'm not sure that he can be made to fit in our budget.

I'm not high on Peter Bourjos.

[Number5]

48 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

Yes - with the signing of Trumbo, Pagan is no longer the best option for the team.  They can acquire a cheaper defense-first OF that can slide into the 5th OF / Nolan Reimold role.  They say they want another LH guy but I don't get that - a RH like Austin Jackson or Peter Bourjos makes more sense - but if they really want Michael Bourn back he is a similar kind of guy.

I do want to say that your ideas are good ones, IMO.  These are the types of players we should be looking at, if we still have money in the budget for FA signings, IMO.  Roch continues to write that DD is still looking for a LH-hitting outfielder, which doesn't seem to be a fit, looking at our current roster, IMO.  I'm not seeing that anywhere else, so I'm not sure if Roch knows something that nobody else seems to, or if Roch continues to rely on what DD was saying prior to the Smith and Trumbo additions.  I agree with you that the one more piece we seem to be missing (other than perhaps tweaking the pitching staff) is a RH bat, preferably an outfielder with a glove.

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, FanSince88 said:

 

If you really wanted to be a contortionist, you could in theory bench Hardy, shift Manny to short, CD to third, and Trumbo to first vs RHP with Smith/Jones/Pagan in the outfield.  But there's no way in hell I see Buck doing something that odd (although it would be one heck of a murderer's row for RHP).  

I mean, if we can get him for 1/4, sure why not.  But it's the same principle as picking up Wieters -- nice to have but a bit redundant.  As with Wieters, someone else who needs him more than we do is likely to outbid us.  

That never occurred to me. Actually it would make more sense to bench Schoop. Doesn't he have reverse splits? Then you shift Hardy to 2B on top of the other switches you have. But yeah, all too accomodate Pagan? I don't think so!

[Aristotelian]

5 minutes ago, Number5 said:

I do want to say that your ideas are good ones, IMO.  These are the types of players we should be looking at, if we still have money in the budget for FA signings, IMO.  Roch continues to write that DD is still looking for a LH-hitting outfielder, which doesn't seem to be a fit, looking at our current roster, IMO.  I'm not seeing that anywhere else, so I'm not sure if Roch knows something that nobody else seems to, or if Roch continues to rely on what DD was saying prior to the Smith and Trumbo additions.  I agree with you that the one more piece we seem to be missing (other than perhaps tweaking the pitching staff) is a RH bat, preferably an outfielder with a glove.

Buck must really, really hate Kim. 

[crawjo]

12 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

He's a one win player in his mid 30s. If someone else wants to give him more than 1/5 or maybe 1/8 good on 'em. I wouldn't.

And Mark Trumbo is a 2-win player in his early 30s, but we still gave him $37.5 million. 

[weams]

6 hours ago, 25 Nuggets said:

 They can acquire a cheaper defense-first OF that can slide into the 5th OF / Nolan Reimold role.  They say they want another LH guy but I don't get that - a RH like Austin Jackson or Peter Bourjos makes more sense - but if they really want Michael Bourn back he is a similar kind of guy.

Which TREMENDOUSLY improves the team defense. 

[weams]

Just hire Manny.