When do the O's fish or cut bait with Duquette and Showalter?

[Rich Mac]

5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

You think Maddon runs Hardy out there in the two hole for the better part of a season?

Do you see name players taking less money to play for Buck?

Maddon bats his pitchers 8th. He once put together an 8675309 lineup just for kicks. I think Maddon is a great manager, but his greatest genius is the ability to motivate and inspire his players. 

I'll take Buck any day tactically. He does make mistakes and drives me crazy sometimes, but I am perfectly happy with the Orioles in his hands.

[El Gordo]

4 hours ago, birdwatcher55 said:

If John Angelos is running show, I don't see it. I don't think Buck would want the headaches. Baseball FO is now for the young and analytic thinking.

Buck is a micro manager. He knows the system from OPACY tp Aberdeen. He has a history of building winning teams and PA trusts him.

[foxfield]

Me thinks that DD and Buck are getting the Eddie Murray treatment. 

[wildcard]

38 minutes ago, birdwatcher55 said:

He's old school. I don't want that person running my front office. I want a young analytics guy cut from the Epstein mold. That's the direction the game is going now. I want a builder. Not a micro manager. No thanks.

That is not the major hurdle in finding a GM that can be successful with the O's.   Its finding someone that can work with the team owner(s).   The Angelos' are probably one on the hardest owners to work for in baseball.  

Here are the GMs before Dan.   The ones that could work with Peter were not successful.  The one that was  successful couldn't work with Peter.

• Roland Hemond
• Pat Gillick
• Frank Wren
• Syd Thrift
• Jim Beattie
• Jim Duquette
• Mike Flanagan
• Andy MacPhail

The best route to a successful O's team is to keep Dan.  He has proved he can work with Peter and on top of that he was able to get Peter to increase payroll from 80m to 165m.  That is no small task.

[Tx Oriole]

9 hours ago, TradeAngelos said:

The unabashed love for Buck despite repeated horrendous decisions over and over and over again, vs the hate for Duquette (building very good teams with one arm tied behind his back, while pulling gem after gem off the scrap heap) on this board and the fanbase in general is sickening. 

I can't wait until he is run out of town after what he has done the past 5 years, and we have a completely unqualified owner favorite running the team straight into the ground. Gonna be great around here then, probably will still find a way to make excuses for Buck. 

 

Wow. You got some real hate for Buck going on. 

[ShaneDawg85]

11 hours ago, wildcard said:

That is not the way Buck gets to the HOF.

It's about the only way he'll get into the Hall.  Buck isn't getting in otherwise, unless the team somehow wins a WS in the next two years, and even then I can't see it.

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, ShaneDawg85 said:

It's about the only way he'll get into the Hall.  Buck isn't getting in otherwise, unless the team somehow wins a WS in the next two years, and even then I can't see it.

With a WS win, Buck would have a chance.    He's 25th all time in managerial wins.   Of the 21 retired managers ahead of him, 17 are in the Hall of Fame (Gene Mauch, Lou Piniella, Jim Leyland and Ralph Houk are not).     I'd still say his odds are less than 50% even with a WS win.

[Sessh]

10 hours ago, TradeAngelos said:

The unabashed love for Buck despite repeated horrendous decisions over and over and over again, vs the hate for Duquette (building very good teams with one arm tied behind his back, while pulling gem after gem off the scrap heap) on this board and the fanbase in general is sickening. 

I can't wait until he is run out of town after what he has done the past 5 years, and we have a completely unqualified owner favorite running the team straight into the ground. Gonna be great around here then, probably will still find a way to make excuses for Buck. 

 

As far as DD, I was fine with him until he tried to ditch the organization for Toronto and only stayed because PA basically forced him to by not letting him out of his contract and asking for way too much from Toronto in a trade. However, he made a lot of bad/questionable trades as well and the organization has not been very good overall at evaluating minor league talent during his tenure though Buck is just as responsible for those blunders IMO. If we had a halfway decent owner, maybe DD builds a championship team here. It's hard for me to come down too hard on DD because of Angelos. No one is more responsible for the shortcomings of this franchise than he is.

As for Buck, yeah, it's annoying, but it shows how low people's standards have become in Baltimore after all that losing. Winning a championship doesn't seem all that important to very many people whether it's the FO or the fans. The regular season is the new world series in Birdland now. Just win in the regular season and everyone is cool even if the team never wins when it matters. For all those regular season wins, the organization has F-all to show for it. Not a single ALCS win and not a single WS appearance; not anything that really matters all of which is 100% consistent with Showalter's track record as a manager over the last 20+ years. His last three employers figured it out after three seasons, but the Orioles are going on seven years now and still don't have a clue. Showalter will never lead a team to the promised land. Only in Baltimore can he survive for this long where people's standards are at rock bottom and postseason success isn't necessary. This is the new losing culture in Baltimore.

7 hours ago, El Gordo said:

Buck is a micro manager. He knows the system from OPACY tp Aberdeen. He has a history of building winning teams and PA trusts him.

Yeah, winning teams that never win when the games really matter. Not once in 20+ years.

[Frobby]

22 minutes ago, Sessh said:

As far as DD, I was fine with him until he tried to ditch the organization for Toronto and only stayed because PA basically forced him to by not letting him out of his contract and asking for way too much from Toronto in a trade. However, he made a lot of bad/questionable trades as well and the organization has not been very good overall at evaluating minor league talent during his tenure though Buck is just as responsible for those blunders IMO. If we had a halfway decent owner, maybe DD builds a championship team here. It's hard for me to come down too hard on DD because of Angelos. No one is more responsible for the shortcomings of this franchise than he is.

As for Buck, yeah, it's annoying, but it shows how low people's standards have become in Baltimore after all that losing. Winning a championship doesn't seem all that important to very many people whether it's the FO or the fans. The regular season is the new world series in Birdland now. Just win in the regular season and everyone is cool even if the team never wins when it matters. For all those regular season wins, the organization has F-all to show for it. Not a single ALCS win and not a single WS appearance; not anything that really matters all of which is 100% consistent with Showalter's track record as a manager over the last 20+ years. His last three employers figured it out after three seasons, but the Orioles are going on seven years now and still don't have a clue. Showalter will never lead a team to the promised land. Only in Baltimore can he survive for this long where people's standards are at rock bottom and postseason success isn't necessary. This is the new losing culture in Baltimore.

First of all, as a factual matter, Buck managed the Yankees and Rangers for four years, not three.    And by pretty much all accounts, Buck was fired in NY because he wouldn't agree to let the owner interfere in decisions about which coaches to retain.

Second, the team culture was a mess when Buck got here, and he fixed it.    That was no small task.    I wasn't overly excited when he was hired, but I saw what he did.   And while he's not perfect, he's without a doubt in my mind one of the top 5 managers in the game today.     We're very lucky to have him.   The team outperforms expectations every year, and he's a huge reason why IMO.

[weams]

12 hours ago, backwardsk said:

Houston had six straight losing seasons including three 100+ losing seasons before they started winning again.  How do you propose the Orioles go through that cycle in 2.5 years?

They actually tanked several of those years, lost draft picks because of shenanigans and had a payroll of 38 million dollars. You think if the Orioles did any of those things that MLB would permit the franchise to continue? 

[PaulFolk]

1 hour ago, Sessh said:

As for Buck, yeah, it's annoying, but it shows how low people's standards have become in Baltimore after all that losing. Winning a championship doesn't seem all that important to very many people whether it's the FO or the fans. The regular season is the new world series in Birdland now. Just win in the regular season and everyone is cool even if the team never wins when it matters. For all those regular season wins, the organization has F-all to show for it. Not a single ALCS win and not a single WS appearance; not anything that really matters all of which is 100% consistent with Showalter's track record as a manager over the last 20+ years. His last three employers figured it out after three seasons, but the Orioles are going on seven years now and still don't have a clue. Showalter will never lead a team to the promised land. Only in Baltimore can he survive for this long where people's standards are at rock bottom and postseason success isn't necessary. This is the new losing culture in Baltimore.

Yeah, winning teams that never win when the games really matter. Not once in 20+ years.

Except for, you know, the nine postseason games he's won, including six with the Orioles. Apparently those don't "really matter"?

In any case, I knew it was only a matter of time before this kind of nonsense cropped up.

Yes, clearly Buck lacks that managerial talent to win a World Series, a skill clearly possessed by tactical geniuses such as Ned Yost and Bob Brenly. "Gosh, if only we could have Ned Yost managing the Orioles!" said no one, ever.

I'm sure your theory holds plenty of water. Just like in 2014, where the Orioles swept the ALDS and then got swept in the ALCS. Clearly the simplest explanation is that Buck was a great manager in the ALDS and then suddenly forgot how to manage in the ALCS. Makes sense!

Or maybe, just maybe -- and bear with me here -- the postseason is largely a crapshoot, as evidenced by the fact that the best regular season team doesn't usually win? And the fact that anything can happen in such short series, where fluke plays and lucky breaks can decide a game?

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, birdwatcher55 said:

Are you kidding me? It doesn't take 6 years to rebuild in MLB. LOL

Depends on a lot of factors.    How much value do you have available to trade away?   Is there anyone left to build around? Is there already some impact talent in the farm system?    What's the competition in the division like?    How much money do you have to spend once some building blocks are in place?    And finally, maybe most importantly, do your rebuilding moves work out, or are the young players busts?   

If everything falls into place, a team can probably rebuild in three years.     Or, it can take an extremely long time.     In our case, I fear it may take a good bit of time, once we start down that road.   

[weams]

Please understand, I do not think Duquette leave because he is not asked back. I think he leaves as did Andy MacPhail.

[wildcard]

1 minute ago, weams said:

Please understand, I do not think Duquette leave because he is not asked back. I think he leaves as did Andy MacPhail.

It all depends on the money and control over the organization he is offered.

[maybenxtyr]

2 minutes ago, weams said:

Please understand, I do not think Duquette leave because he is not asked back. I think he leaves as did Andy MacPhail.

That's what I am afraid of. I know he isn't perfect, but he has shown an ability to work within the confines of his employer.