When do the O's fish or cut bait with Duquette and Showalter?

[PaulFolk]

3 hours ago, Sessh said:

..which are outweighed by the 14 postseason games he's lost and couldn't win a single game when he actually made it to the ALCS. So, the Orioles exited the postseason with a losing record despite the ALDS sweep. It's not nonsense, it's called facts. Showalter, no matter how good the team is he has, does not produce results in the postseason and by results, I don't mean getting swept out of the ALCS with the best team this franchise has had during his tenure here and making himself the laughing stock of baseball for not using Zach Britton last season which likely cost the Orioles 2-3 more innings to win the game.

Except you said he "hasn't once" won a game that matters. That's clearly nonsense, not facts. Unless you've slept through all the postseason wins.

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Ned Yost made it to the World Series in back to back years. I'd take that over any and everything Showalter has done since he's been here especially considering they actually WON one and nearly won both.

This speaks volumes about the legitimacy of your opinion. I'm not sure there's a team in baseball that, all else being equal, would pick Yost over Buck as a manager. Yost is a legendarily bad tactician, even if his players enjoy playing for him. The fact that he made it to the World Series twice has a lot more to do with his players than him. A manager can't single-handedly will his team to the World Series -- not Yost, not Buck, not anyone.

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Well, Buck's teams always lose the "crapshoot" before actually making any significant impact once they get there. Why is it Buck's teams are just never up for the challenge? They're always the "cold" team unless it's the Tigers, I guess? He makes the same mistakes he made 20 years ago with the Yankees as evidenced last year against Toronto. He's a stubborn man set in his ways which virtually guarantees nothing will change. Sure though, let's just stick with the guy that, for whatever reason, doesn't motivate his teams in the postseason more than the other guys. He doesn't get the best out of his players when it really matters. Let's keep making excuses, though. That's much easier and far more sensible because a 20 year track record is insignificant. Let's also ignore the 14 losses and lack of any significant postseason success in favor of those nine wins, too.

It's a joke to suggest the Orioles are "never up to the challenge" in the postseason. They won the 2012 wild card game on the road in Texas as severe underdogs, then took the Yankees to the full five games in the ALDS. They swept the favored Tigers in the 2014 ALDS, which you conveniently dismiss as if it means nothing. Then they were swept in four games by the Royals, each of which was decided by 1 or 2 runs and could've gone either way. That's how baseball works.

Let me ask you this: what, specifically, do you think prevents Buck from having success in the postseason? You mentioned that he's "stubborn," but what does that mean in this context? What specific mistakes you can you point to that make him a postseason failure?

Not using Britton in the wild card game was a blunder. But what else?

[thezeroes]

3 hours ago, Sessh said:

They're always the "cold" team unless it's the Tigers, I guess?

Guess this would be a "Lucky" win for a no talent manager like Buck Showalter

[FlipTheBird]

5 minutes ago, PaulFolk said:

Except you said he "hasn't once" won a game that matters. That's clearly nonsense, not facts. Unless you've slept through all the postseason wins.

This speaks volumes about the legitimacy of your opinion. I'm not sure there's a team in baseball that, all else being equal, would pick Yost over Buck as a manager. Yost is a legendarily bad tactician, even if his players enjoy playing for him. The fact that he made it to the World Series twice has a lot more to do with his players than him. A manager can't single-handedly will his team to the World Series -- not Yost, not Buck, not anyone.

It's a joke to suggest the Orioles are "never up to the challenge" in the postseason. They won the 2012 wild card game on the road in Texas as severe underdogs, then took the Yankees to the full five games in the ALDS. They swept the favored Tigers in the 2014 ALDS, which you conveniently dismiss as if it means nothing. Then they were swept in four games by the Royals, each of which was decided by 1 or 2 runs and could've gone either way. That's how baseball works.

Let me ask you this: what, specifically, do you think prevents Buck from having success in the postseason? You mentioned that he's "stubborn," but what does that mean in this context? What specific mistakes you can you point to that make him a postseason failure?

Not using Britton in the wild card game was a blunder. But what else?

To put the full context of his dismissal of the Tigers into perspective, let's remember that their starting rotation for that series was Verlander, Scherzer, Price. And the Orioles swept them.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't know, when someone says last rodeo three years before his contract is up I'm not thinking extension.

I think he said it more to indicate that he wouldn't look for another managerial gig after this one, not that he wouldn't necessarily consider an extension of this one. But if I'm Peter Angelos, I'd be taking a sounding on that very question as soon as this season is over, and maybe before.    

[Can_of_corn]

12 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think he said it more to indicate that he wouldn't look for another managerial gig after this one, not that he wouldn't necessarily consider an extension of this one. But if I'm Peter Angelos, I'd be taking a sounding on that very question as soon as this season is over, and maybe before.    

Needless to say I think he would be much more likely to stay if the team looked like a contender over the length of the proposed extension.

[Sessh]

1 hour ago, PaulFolk said:

Except you said he "hasn't once" won a game that matters. That's clearly nonsense, not facts. Unless you've slept through all the postseason wins.

This speaks volumes about the legitimacy of your opinion. I'm not sure there's a team in baseball that, all else being equal, would pick Yost over Buck as a manager. Yost is a legendarily bad tactician, even if his players enjoy playing for him. The fact that he made it to the World Series twice has a lot more to do with his players than him. A manager can't single-handedly will his team to the World Series -- not Yost, not Buck, not anyone.

It's a joke to suggest the Orioles are "never up to the challenge" in the postseason. They won the 2012 wild card game on the road in Texas as severe underdogs, then took the Yankees to the full five games in the ALDS. They swept the favored Tigers in the 2014 ALDS, which you conveniently dismiss as if it means nothing. Then they were swept in four games by the Royals, each of which was decided by 1 or 2 runs and could've gone either way.

That's NOT what I said. I said he manages winning teams that never win when the games really matter. Not once. I assumed the meaning would be clear as I was discussing the lack of postseason success. If they won the games that mattered, he'd have postseason success in his resume. He doesn't, but sure, it's nonsense if you think I was seriously saying he's never won a single postseason game. It's even more nonsensical to think that's what I meant, though.

I don't care what "other teams" would pick. I said I would take Yost's accomplishments over Buck's during this span of time in a second. A read through these forums will turn up some "legendarily bad" aspects of Showalter particiularly when it comes to managing starting pitchers, (not) using his bench, showing favoritism ("Buck's guys") even when it makes him look like a fool and so on. This pretty much encapsulates the blunders that have held him back from more postseason success. Fortunately, I forgot most of that KC series as soon as it was over, but the Orioles couldn't hold a lead and were not the same team after losing both games at home and being taunted publically in the media by the Royals to which they did not respond. The manager is also there to keep guys focused and get the best out of them. I wasn't surprised at all that the Orioles swept the Tigers as I thought they were the better team even with the starters, but it's inexcusable to be swept in the next round while being publically taunted and not responding.

Of course I know a manager alone can't do it, but a manager that makes bad decisions in the postseason is much harder to make up for than in the regular season. Managerial decisions in the postseason, for better or worse, have far more impact. In the regular season, messing up one game is easily overcome unless it's late in September while it can lose you a series in October. 

The Zach Britton deal was the exact same thing he did in 1995 with the Yankees. He chose to go with and stay with Jack McDowell instead of going to his closer Wetteland. In many ways, the 2016 blunder was far worse because of what Jimenez was and that he was kept in the game even after allowing two guys on and put the whole season in his hands instead of Britton's. Still, tie game on the road in a win-or-go-home series, the Yankees get the lead and Buck neglects to bring his closer in. There's many similarities though slightly different, but equally ridiculous. The decision to use Britton was an easier one, too.

1 hour ago, thezeroes said:

Guess this would be a "Lucky" win for a no talent manager like Buck Showalter

I never said Showalter was a 'no talent' manager. He is a great regular season manager and there's no one better at turning a bad team into a contender fast. No one better, but he falls short in the postseason and all too often, too much of it due to his own managerial blunders.

[JohnD]

I mean, I would keep Buck around until he has had enough.

There is an argument for keeping Duwlq here too.  A strong one even, as outlined by some people here.  But I also see a farm system that still isn't strong, be it because of misses by scouting or by the player development side.  Regardless that falls under Duq and the underwhelming results there (Duqs scouring of the waiver wire and modest successes there notwithstanding) also provide an argument for change.  A lot of holes in the roster loom and it's hard to envision much impact help coming from AA or AAA soon.

[FlipTheBird]

52 minutes ago, Sessh said:

That's NOT what I said. I said he manages winning teams that never win when the games really matter. Not once. I assumed the meaning would be clear as I was discussing the lack of postseason success. If they won the games that mattered, he'd have postseason success in his resume. He doesn't, but sure, it's nonsense if you think I was seriously saying he's never won a single postseason game. It's even more nonsensical to think that's what I meant, though.

I don't care what "other teams" would pick. I said I would take Yost's accomplishments over Buck's during this span of time in a second. A read through these forums will turn up some "legendarily bad" aspects of Showalter particiularly when it comes to managing starting pitchers, (not) using his bench, showing favoritism ("Buck's guys") even when it makes him look like a fool and so on. This pretty much encapsulates the blunders that have held him back from more postseason success. Fortunately, I forgot most of that KC series as soon as it was over, but the Orioles couldn't hold a lead and were not the same team after losing both games at home and being taunted publically in the media by the Royals to which they did not respond. The manager is also there to keep guys focused and get the best out of them. I wasn't surprised at all that the Orioles swept the Tigers as I thought they were the better team even with the starters, but it's inexcusable to be swept in the next round while being publically taunted and not responding.

Of course I know a manager alone can't do it, but a manager that makes bad decisions in the postseason is much harder to make up for than in the regular season. Managerial decisions in the postseason, for better or worse, have far more impact. In the regular season, messing up one game is easily overcome unless it's late in September while it can lose you a series in October. 

The Zach Britton deal was the exact same thing he did in 1995 with the Yankees. He chose to go with and stay with Jack McDowell instead of going to his closer Wetteland. In many ways, the 2016 blunder was far worse because of what Jimenez was and that he was kept in the game even after allowing two guys on and put the whole season in his hands instead of Britton's. Still, tie game on the road in a win-or-go-home series, the Yankees get the lead and Buck neglects to bring his closer in. There's many similarities though slightly different, but equally ridiculous. The decision to use Britton was an easier one, too.

I never said Showalter was a 'no talent' manager. He is a great regular season manager and there's no one better at turning a bad team into a contender fast. No one better, but he falls short in the postseason and all too often, too much of it due to his own managerial blunders.

Given that you're hot on 2014, please name a few managerial blunders from the ALCS.

[Sessh]

15 hours ago, FlipTheBird said:

Given that you're hot on 2014, please name a few managerial blunders from the ALCS.

As I said, I blocked most of that series out of my head shortly after it happened as far as little details, but I do remember there being complaints about stuff from the knowledgeable fans I was around at the time. The thing that I remember the most about that was that the Orioles were beaten, mentally and psychologically, after the first two crushing home losses where they couldn't hold the many leads the team got in those games. Then, the taunting? No response? Showalter was unable to light a fire under this bunch and keep them focused? When it's the whole team, it's on the manager. They responded by getting swept in the final two games and scored only two runs in both games combined?

Yes, they were low scoring games and the Orioles were in both those games, but where's the fire? They had less fire and energy in those two games than they did in the first two and never recovered. To me, that's on Buck more than anyone else. Maybe the Orioles were overconfident after rolling the Tigers, but whatever it was, they were done after they dropped the first two games at home and were even more done after the taunting by not just one Royals player, but several including former Orioles pitcher Jeremy Guthrie. I know, he said he didn't mean anything by it, but I don't believe that. After having two games stolen from them and being taunted in the media by Royals players who apparently also felt the series was over after the first two games, I expect a manager that knows what he's doing to rally his troops, light a fire under them and re-focus them so they take the field for game three with new life. That didn't happen. In fact, the opposite happened. That's all I need to remember about that series.

[FlipTheBird]

42 minutes ago, Sessh said:

As I said, I blocked most of that series out of my head shortly after it happened as far as little details, but I do remember there being complaints about stuff from the knowledgeable fans I was around at the time. The thing that I remember the most about that was that the Orioles were beaten, mentally and psychologically, after the first two crushing home losses where they couldn't hold the many leads the team got in those games. Then, the taunting? No response? Showalter was unable to light a fire under this bunch and keep them focused? When it's the whole team, it's on the manager. They responded by getting swept in the final two games and scored only two runs in both games combined?

Yes, they were low scoring games and the Orioles were in both those games, but where's the fire? They had less fire and energy in those two games than they did in the first two and never recovered. To me, that's on Buck more than anyone else. Maybe the Orioles were overconfident after rolling the Tigers, but whatever it was, they were done after they dropped the first two games at home and were even more done after the taunting by not just one Royals player, but several including former Orioles pitcher Jeremy Guthrie. I know, he said he didn't mean anything by it, but I don't believe that. After having two games stolen from them and being taunted in the media by Royals players who apparently also felt the series was over after the first two games, I expect a manager that knows what he's doing to rally his troops, light a fire under them and re-focus them so they take the field for game three with new life. That didn't happen. In fact, the opposite happened. That's all I need to remember about that series.

So you're basing your analysis of the 2014 ALCS, which you claim to have mostly blocked out, on your offhand perception of the team. Got it. Thanks. All I needed to know.

[FlipTheBird]

45 minutes ago, Sessh said:

As I said, I blocked most of that series out of my head shortly after it happened as far as little details, but I do remember there being complaints about stuff from the knowledgeable fans I was around at the time. The thing that I remember the most about that was that the Orioles were beaten, mentally and psychologically, after the first two crushing home losses where they couldn't hold the many leads the team got in those games. Then, the taunting? No response? Showalter was unable to light a fire under this bunch and keep them focused? When it's the whole team, it's on the manager. They responded by getting swept in the final two games and scored only two runs in both games combined?

Yes, they were low scoring games and the Orioles were in both those games, but where's the fire? They had less fire and energy in those two games than they did in the first two and never recovered. To me, that's on Buck more than anyone else. Maybe the Orioles were overconfident after rolling the Tigers, but whatever it was, they were done after they dropped the first two games at home and were even more done after the taunting by not just one Royals player, but several including former Orioles pitcher Jeremy Guthrie. I know, he said he didn't mean anything by it, but I don't believe that. After having two games stolen from them and being taunted in the media by Royals players who apparently also felt the series was over after the first two games, I expect a manager that knows what he's doing to rally his troops, light a fire under them and re-focus them so they take the field for game three with new life. That didn't happen. In fact, the opposite happened. That's all I need to remember about that series.

I'm also obligated to point out that the only lead the Orioles ever had in the 2014 ALCS was a 1-0 lead for about an inning and a half in Game 3. They never led in Baltimore. They were constantly playing catchup because the pitching finally started to falter - especially the bullpen.

[FlipTheBird]

47 minutes ago, Sessh said:

As I said, I blocked most of that series out of my head shortly after it happened as far as little details, but I do remember there being complaints about stuff from the knowledgeable fans I was around at the time. The thing that I remember the most about that was that the Orioles were beaten, mentally and psychologically, after the first two crushing home losses where they couldn't hold the many leads the team got in those games. Then, the taunting? No response? Showalter was unable to light a fire under this bunch and keep them focused? When it's the whole team, it's on the manager. They responded by getting swept in the final two games and scored only two runs in both games combined?

Yes, they were low scoring games and the Orioles were in both those games, but where's the fire? They had less fire and energy in those two games than they did in the first two and never recovered. To me, that's on Buck more than anyone else. Maybe the Orioles were overconfident after rolling the Tigers, but whatever it was, they were done after they dropped the first two games at home and were even more done after the taunting by not just one Royals player, but several including former Orioles pitcher Jeremy Guthrie. I know, he said he didn't mean anything by it, but I don't believe that. After having two games stolen from them and being taunted in the media by Royals players who apparently also felt the series was over after the first two games, I expect a manager that knows what he's doing to rally his troops, light a fire under them and re-focus them so they take the field for game three with new life. That didn't happen. In fact, the opposite happened. That's all I need to remember about that series.

Further, I do like that at no point are you mentioning the fact that Buck got this team to the ALCS without Matt Wieters, Manny Machado or Chris Davis. Instead he was working with the combined talent of Caleb Joseph/Nick Hundley, Ryan Flaherty and a hodgepodge of guys getting Davis' at bats. Namely Steve Pearce, who after a surprising season ultimately hit .059 in the ALCS.

[ShaneDawg85]

1 hour ago, FlipTheBird said:

Further, I do like that at no point are you mentioning the fact that Buck got this team to the ALCS without Matt Wieters, Manny Machado or Chris Davis. Instead he was working with the combined talent of Caleb Joseph/Nick Hundley, Ryan Flaherty and a hodgepodge of guys getting Davis' at bats. Namely Steve Pearce, who after a surprising season ultimately hit .059 in the ALCS.

Pretty much this.  They had already come back in Game 1 to take it to extras after Tillman had a bad start, and came back the next day when Norris had an even worse start.  The fact of the matter is that the team couldn't hit that series, and when it looked like they were going to the Royals literally caught everything like the game was being played in zero gravity.  The persistent failure of the Orioles in the postseason since 2012 has been their offense comes up short, and that series was no exception.  Their flaws get magnified because they start swinging for the fences trying to make something happen.  I don't care how much fire you've got in your got, or outward emotion  you're trying to show, or if you respond to stupid taunts from stupid opponents, you're not winning when you can't hit.  When the highest OPS in the series is by Ryan freaking Flaherty, followed by Adam Jones at less than .800, the same Adam Jones that I and many others have raked over coals for coming up short in the playoffs, you're not winning the series, and you'll be lucky to win more than a game, period.  If you're going to crucify Buck for that series, go right ahead, but you'd be wrong.  Why don't you instead crucify Steve Pearce, or Nelson Cruz, or even my eternal man crush Nick Markakis for coming up completely short that entire series.  Nothing Buck could have done was going to change the outcome of that series, and even if Wieters, Davis, and Machado had been there, I'm not convinced the results would have been different.  They went up against the wrong team at the wrong time in the wrong year, and guess what, that's baseball.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, FlipTheBird said:

Further, I do like that at no point are you mentioning the fact that Buck got this team to the ALCS without Matt Wieters, Manny Machado or Chris Davis. Instead he was working with the combined talent of Caleb Joseph/Nick Hundley, Ryan Flaherty and a hodgepodge of guys getting Davis' at bats. Namely Steve Pearce, who after a surprising season ultimately hit .059 in the ALCS.

Rather important facts.  

[Can_of_corn]

I think the Royals out scouted the Orioles.