$81million, -3.2 WAR

[Enjoy Terror]

Just now, DirtyBird said:

It's also an avg of less than 5 innings per start.

So what? Frobby's correct: only in hindsight is anyone unhappy that Tillman took $10M for this season.

[eddie83]

12 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

This franchise is used to bad looks.

He showed up for camp with the same injury he had last year.

Bringing him back is 100% on the gm.

The medical people play no role? Dan isn't a doctor. Also you have to be careful how you treat people. How many teams bail on a good player in a spot Iike this? Doesn't happen much. 

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, DirtyBird said:

It's also an avg of less than 5 innings per start.

Yeah, but the WC game was one where Buck was going to yank the starter at the first sign of trouble.   If that had been a regular season game, Tillman would have pitched longer.

As I said, these starts weren't necessarily vintage Tillman, but it didn't seem there was anything going on that a winter's rest wouldn't solve.    I don't remember there being a rash of threads over the winter worrying over whether Tillman had an injury that was going to linger.

[eddie83]

12 minutes ago, Enjoy Terror said:

With so much money coming off after this season, seems like they are allocated okay to me. I certainly haven't read anywhere that they are unable to sign Manny because of money, other than that he's asking for the moon. All thirty teams would struggle to fit Manny in the budget.

Also, what makes Brady more qualified  (or at all qualified) to replace DD? He's already part of this organization some of you have deemed "mismanaged". Has he come out publicly against these moves that show he's making sound choices against what his employers think? Why would we think that he's not already heavily involved in the decisions the Orioles have already made?

Brady is tight with owner. That is why I think he may get the job. Flanny had a good relationship with Peter.

I didn't rip Dan over many of these moves. It just points out the risks involved. I think Peter pushed to sign Davis not Dan. I wanted Hardy brought back. 

We are not in terrible shape but need to avoid some of these types of moves in the future.  

[SteveA]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

Yeah, but the WC game was one where Buck was going to yank the starter at the first sign of trouble.   If that had been a regular season game, Tillman would have pitched longer.

As I said, these starts weren't necessarily vintage Tillman, but it didn't seem there was anything going on that a winter's rest wouldn't solve.    I don't remember there being a rash of threads over the winter worrying over whether Tillman had an injury that was going to linger.

Yeah, with our dearth of starting pitching, if we had non-tendered Tillman and he had gone somewhere and had a decent season, you would NEVER hear the end of it from people on here, he'd be right up there with Davies, etc, as one we let go for nothing.

Bottom line -- no team is going to non-tender one of its best starting pitchers, just because he had an injury in August and then CAME BACK from it and pitched relatively well.   Especially not a team that had an extreme lack of depth in the starting rotation.

The ONLY way you would do that is if you had an absolute lock medical report that his shoulder was shot from the doctors.  Had he even had his offseason issue when the non-tender deadline passed?

Even if there was just a 50/50 chance he could be healthy and pitch up to his 2016 level this year, you would have to tender him.   We had no depth and no alternatives.   Anyone suggesting in hindsight that we should have non-tendered him is being  revisionist with an agenda.   Barring some sort of medical report that they had that we don't know about that meant they KNEW his shoulder was shot, there's simply no way you can argue we should have non-tendered.   He came back from his August injury, and he could potentially have been our best pitcher going into this season.

[Can_of_corn]

Of course it would be hindsight. Unlike Dan we didn't know he was still injured. Would you have tendered an injured Tillman?

[SteveA]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Of course it would be hindsight. Unlike Dan we didn't know he was still injured. Would you have tendered an injured Tillman?

I would have unless we knew it was a serious injury that would impair his entire season, yes.

Did DD know that?

And when was the tender date?   I know there was some point in December when Tillman shut down his offseason and had a PRP injection.   Was that before or after the tender date?

[Il BuonO]

12 minutes ago, SteveA said:

I would have unless we knew it was a serious injury that would impair his entire season, yes.

Did DD know that?

And when was the tender date?   I know there was some point in December when Tillman shut down his offseason and had a PRP injection.   Was that before or after the tender date?

Dec 2nd

[Nevermore]

Someone, I  forget who, posted an article about Tillman. He suggested signing Tillman to a 1-year, incentive laden contract. He has done so much for the team. My theory about his shoulder is that it healed, but was left in a weakened condition. So he'll have to become more of a finesse pitcher. If the Orioles pitching coaches are unable to supply this coaching, some other team's coaches should be able to supply it. Let's not just dump him when he's down but help him come back.

 

 

[Luke-OH]

10 minutes ago, Nevermore said:

Someone, I  forget who, posted an article about Tillman. He suggested signing Tillman to a 1-year, incentive laden contract. He has done so much for the team. My theory about his shoulder is that it healed, but was left in a weakened condition. So he'll have to become more of a finesse pitcher. If the Orioles pitching coaches are unable to supply this coaching, some other team's coaches should be able to supply it. Let's not just dump him when he's down but help him come back.

 

 

He changed his arm slot, he's not missing any bats. I would need to see him throw like he used to before any contract offer. Although  I'd be afraid to re-sign him even for cheap with Buck managing because Buck's leash with Tilly is too long.

[Nevermore]

3 minutes ago, phillyOs119 said:

He changed his arm slot, he's not missing any bats. I would need to see him throw like he used to before any contract offer. Although  I'd be afraid to re-sign him even for cheap with Buck managing because Buck's leash with Tilly is too long.

Is Tilly able to pitch with the same arm slot as before after his injury?

[Luke-OH]

5 hours ago, Nevermore said:

Is Tilly able to pitch with the same arm slot as before after his injury?

I dunno, but if he can't I don't think he should be resigned.

[Ohfan67]

If DD really had freedom to sign or not sign those players, then he deserves to be fired. And if Buck pushed those signings, then he deserves to be fired IMO. If Brady pushed for them, then he deserves to be fired. But, alas, we will never know how much responsibility was/is Duquette's and what role others in the organization played. Certainly media reports suggest that Davis was not DD's signing. But if Davis was the only non-DD contract, then I still think he deserves to be fired. The Orioles have wasted a lot of money on fool's gold and are going to be paying a lot of money for negative WAR for several more years. Add this to the very poor deadline deals and DD's tenure with the Orioles has been pretty blah. Great job with the scrap heap deals and I like that he and Buck have used the 40 man roster to a far greater extent than their predecessors, but I think there's enough data to say that the organization could do much better. But again, we don't really know how much freedom DD has had or how much a future GM will have...same old Angelos story and it makes it so hard to impossible to really evaluate DD. 

[Tx Oriole]

1 hour ago, Ohfan67 said:

If DD really had freedom to sign or not sign those players, then he deserves to be fired. And if Buck pushed those signings, then he deserves to be fired IMO. If Brady pushed for them, then he deserves to be fired. But, alas, we will never know how much responsibility was/is Duquette's and what role others in the organization played. Certainly media reports suggest that Davis was not DD's signing. But if Davis was the only non-DD contract, then I still think he deserves to be fired. The Orioles have wasted a lot of money on fool's gold and are going to be paying a lot of money for negative WAR for several more years. Add this to the very poor deadline deals and DD's tenure with the Orioles has been pretty blah. Great job with the scrap heap deals and I like that he and Buck have used the 40 man roster to a far greater extent than their predecessors, but I think there's enough data to say that the organization could do much better. But again, we don't really know how much freedom DD has had or how much a future GM will have...same old Angelos story and it makes it so hard to impossible to really evaluate DD. 

Those are some good points. But I still would like it if DD and Buck were gone. I would hope there would be a better GM and Manager available for the O's Organization.  

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, Tx Oriole said:

Those are some good points. But I still would like it if DD and Buck were gone. I would hope there would be a better GM and Manager available for the O's Organization.  

You aren't going to find a better manager than Buck, IMO.    But as Buck has said himself, sometimes a manager just runs his course with a team, and they need someone new to get a fresh start.     I doubt Angelos concludes that we're there yet.    

As I've said several times, I really don't want DD here as a lame duck GM.     Extend him or fire him, but I don't want a guy running the team as if 2018 is the only season that matters.    Like many people, I wonder if anyone better would actually take the job.