A report on the Baysox players that may make the O's

[POR]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yes, Daniel Cabrera, that famous position player.

Oh wait, Daniel Cabrera the most non position player ever.

So you have no examples of rushed position players that were damaged by being rushed.

Jeff Fiorentino

[Frobby]

50 minutes ago, survivedc said:

As far as Bigbie, I don't think he ever played for the Tides, wasn't the AAA team in ottowa then?

Yes.   He played for Rochester and then Ottawa.

 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, POR said:

Jeff Fiorentino

First off he didn't play in AA and secondly was he damaged?

I don't think 97 PA over two years did any serious harm to his career.

I will say it was a bizarre way to handle a player.

[Frobby]

12 minutes ago, POR said:

Jeff Fiorentino

While Fiorentino certainly was rushed in his first trip to the majors, I don't think it affected his development much.     While at Frederick, he was jumped to the majors because of an injury, but only stayed a couple of weeks.    He ended up getting 455 PA at Frederick that year, 450 at Bowie the next, then repeated at Bowie for 496 PA.     The biggest problem was that he had used all of his options by then due to his premature call-up, and he got claimed when the O's tried to DFA him after the 2007 season.

[Sessh]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yes, Daniel Cabrera, that famous position player.

Oh wait, Daniel Cabrera the most non position player ever.

So you have no examples of rushed position players that were damaged by being rushed.

Actually, I just looked back and saw you said position players. I apparently missed the "position" part and thought it said just "players", so that's my bad. I actually can't think of any position guys honestly. The Orioles have done pretty well with hitters, but both hitters and pitchers were being discussed in this thread. I still don't see how spending some time at Norfolk would hurt a player's development. He may even have a shorter learning curve and start excelling sooner than he would if he jumped two levels instead of one at a time. Just because it's the way it's done doesn't mean it's the best way.

If I could have position players come up and continue their success seamlessly without too much of a struggle because he is coming from AAA as opposed to being set up to have more trouble from AA, it's an easy choice. Fastballs are no problem, but there's a significant difference between AA breaking pitches and ML breaking pitches. There's much less of one coming from AAA as it's nearly the same as what they will see at the top level. Putting unnecessary stumbling blocks in front of players as opposed to not doing that is pretty straightforward. Sure, they may overcome it, but I'd rather them overcome it faster and I'd rather they come to the majors one level down as opposed to two. I'm with you on pitchers, but I think it also applies to relievers. The better their arsenal and command is when they get to the major league level, the better. Maybe I'm just old fashioned in that way, but it makes a lot more sense to me to make the transition as seamless as possible for young players.

1 hour ago, Tx Oriole said:

Sorry but I have to disagree with you. 

Most people do. It doesn't bother me at all, really.

31 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Just curious.   What was the last O's team that you liked?

2014.

[wildcard]

1 minute ago, Sessh said:

Actually, I just looked back and saw you said position players. I apparently missed the "position" part and thought it said just "players", so that's my bad. I actually can't think of any position guys honestly. The Orioles have done pretty well with hitters, but both hitters and pitchers were being discussed in this thread. I still don't see how spending some time at Norfolk would hurt a player's development. He may even have a shorter learning curve and start excelling sooner than he would if he jumped two levels instead of one at a time. Just because it's the way it's done doesn't mean it's the best way.

If I could have position players come up and continue their success seamlessly without too much of a struggle because he is coming from AAA as opposed to being set up to have more trouble from AA, it's an easy choice. Fastballs are no problem, but there's a significant difference between AA breaking pitches and ML breaking pitches. There's much less of one coming from AAA as it's nearly the same as what they will see at the top level. Putting unnecessary stumbling blocks in front of players as opposed to not doing that is pretty straightforward. Sure, they may overcome it, but I'd rather them overcome it faster and I'd rather they come to the majors one level down as opposed to two. I'm with you on pitchers, but I think it also applies to relievers. The better their arsenal and command is when they get to the major league level, the better. Maybe I'm just old fashioned in that way, but it makes a lot more sense to me to make the transition as seamless as possible for young players.

Most people do. It doesn't bother me at all, really.

2014.

Its good to know that Dan and Buck did  something you liked.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Actually, I just looked back and saw you said position players. I apparently missed the "position" part and thought it said just "players", so that's my bad. I actually can't think of any position guys honestly. The Orioles have done pretty well with hitters, but both hitters and pitchers were being discussed in this thread. I still don't see how spending some time at Norfolk would hurt a player's development. He may even have a shorter learning curve and start excelling sooner than he would if he jumped two levels instead of one at a time. Just because it's the way it's done doesn't mean it's the best way.

If I could have position players come up and continue their success seamlessly without too much of a struggle because he is coming from AAA as opposed to being set up to have more trouble from AA, it's an easy choice. Fastballs are no problem, but there's a significant difference between AA breaking pitches and ML breaking pitches. There's much less of one coming from AAA as it's nearly the same as what they will see at the top level. Putting unnecessary stumbling blocks in front of players as opposed to not doing that is pretty straightforward. Sure, they may overcome it, but I'd rather them overcome it faster and I'd rather they come to the majors one level down as opposed to two. I'm with you on pitchers, but I think it also applies to relievers. The better their arsenal and command is when they get to the major league level, the better. Maybe I'm just old fashioned in that way, but it makes a lot more sense to me to make the transition as seamless as possible for young players.

 

For what it is worth I agree with you about not rushing starting pitchers.

[Sessh]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

Its good to know that Dan and Buck did  something you liked.

Once upon a time, sure. The outcome of that season was when I realized the limits of this team and specifically Showalter which are things that are only more solidified now. When they're both gone, that will be the next thing I'll like and am looking forward to it. Not as much as Angelos potentially stepping down, though. Now THAT would be great.

Sometimes, reality is negative. It's a fact of life. I just choose not to ignore that and instead embrace it and deal with it as it is, that's all. I don't wear the same glasses many of you guys do. I used to, though.

[Sessh]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

For what it is worth I agree with you about not rushing starting pitchers.

Fair enough. If everyone always agreed with everyone, life would be quite boring.

[Pheasants]

1 hour ago, survivedc said:

As far as Bigbie, I don't think he ever played for the Tides, wasn't the AAA team in ottowa then?

You are right, he was at both Rochester and Ottawa.  So who was I thinking of? 

[wildcard]

31 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Once upon a time, sure. The outcome of that season was when I realized the limits of this team and specifically Showalter which are things that are only more solidified now. When they're both gone, that will be the next thing I'll like and am looking forward to it. Not as much as Angelos potentially stepping down, though. Now THAT would be great.

Sometimes, reality is negative. It's a fact of life. I just choose not to ignore that and instead embrace it and deal with it as it is, that's all. I don't wear the same glasses many of you guys do. I used to, though.

Looking on the negative side can make it hard to enjoy a team.  This is entertainment.  Following a team that your down on sounds like it would sap all the happiness out of it.

[Frobby]

38 minutes ago, Pheasants said:

You are right, he was at both Rochester and Ottawa.  So who was I thinking of? 

The one guy who seemed on the fast track but really stalled at Norfolk was Brandon Snyder.    But I don't think the ballpark was the problem.   

[turtlebowl]

1 hour ago, Pheasants said:

You are right, he was at both Rochester and Ottawa.  So who was I thinking of? 

If I remember right their were concerns about Bigbie's bat speed when he was coming up.  I think that may have been his undoing, not being rushed.

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, Pheasants said:

I think we have to remember that Norfolk is not a standard setting.  I feel some players hurt their development by trying to produce power in an anti-power environment rather than being themselves.  One name that comes to mind, and I can't prove that he really could have been somebody without Norfolk and/or pills, is Larry Bigbee.  If Bowie is more like Baltimore in how the ball carries, etc., than Bowie to Baltimore makes sense. 

As for pitchers, I think it was Drungo who used to argue that there were only so many pitches in an arm so why waste a bunch in the minors if someone looks ready. 

 

Whenever you think AAA is important, look at the numbers that Richard Rodriguez put up there and then look at him in the major leagues. Extra development time in AAA certainly won't hurt any player, but if a player is dominating AA, he can handle himself in the major leagues. Hays is ready. Hays will make the adjustments and if you look at his hit chart, he he not a dead pull hitter.

Hays put up better numbers at AA than Markakis at the same age and experience. He won't have the OBP that Markakis has, but there's more power and he's much better runner than Markakis ever was.

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, POR said:

Jeff Fiorentino

You have to be good to be damaged. Fiorentino was dumb call up no doubt, but he needed major reworking for his swing to work at higher levels and he wasn't very good defensively.