Cafardo: Showalter losing the clubhouse

[eddie83]

Mentioned in Nick Cafardo's notes column.  

From insiders and players telling their agents.

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2017/10/07/torey-luvullo-brought-love-yes-love-diamondbacks-clubhouse/HsIpMKRh4Hid1hXDCBwwyI/story.html

[eddie83]

My bad. It was covered in off season news post.  

[O's are Legends]

Thanks for posting.

"5. Buck Showalter, manager, Orioles — Did Showalter lose control of his clubhouse? It’s a sentiment you’re hearing more and more among baseball insiders, and players have told their agents that was the case."

Interesting and if true, just speculating here, but wonder how many players essentially lost faith in Buck after not using Britton.

Other than that, maybe some of the players were tired of seeing Miley, Ubaldo and Tillman constantly take the mound. Once again, pure speculation and until more concrete info comes out, that's about all one can do.

[24fps]

Evidentily drunkedness and/or chemically-induced hallucinations are acceptable in sports journalism these days.  Presumably this also applies to online commentary from the rabble, so I'm going to speculate that Nick Cafardo was either drunk or tripping when he wrote this column.

[ArtVanDelay]

19 minutes ago, 24fps said:

Evidentily drunkedness and/or chemically-induced hallucinations are acceptable in sports journalism these days.  Presumably this also applies to online commentary from the rabble, so I'm going to speculate that Nick Cafardo was either drunk or tripping when he wrote this column.

It seems legit to me.  Buck made the worst managerial decision I’ve ever seen in the WC game last year.  It makes sense that the clubhouse would turn on him after that.  Not sure why this is so unbelievable to you.

[tntoriole]

Funny how you never hear of managers losing the clubhouse when teams are winning. 

[Enjoy Terror]

1 minute ago, tntoriole said:

Funny how you never hear of managers losing the clubhouse when teams are winning. 

I guess I don’t get the joke. Why would a manager lose a clubhouse while winning?

[Enjoy Terror]

29 minutes ago, 24fps said:

Evidentily drunkedness and/or chemically-induced hallucinations are acceptable in sports journalism these days.  Presumably this also applies to online commentary from the rabble, so I'm going to speculate that Nick Cafardo was either drunk or tripping when he wrote this column.

Buck is a manager who shouldered the blame for an early exit in last years playoffs and then led the next seasons lackluster team to last place— finishing the year with a team that showed very little desire win or even show up to play baseball. What person wouldn’t speculate that Buck has lost control of his clubhouse? His job as manager is to not only manage, but press his players to come ready to play every day. I saw none of that, even one game out of the wildcard. It was a time when Buck needed to inspire a sense of urgency and instead the team rolled over. I don’t need theatrics but I do expect passion.

[tntoriole]

7 minutes ago, Enjoy Terror said:

I guess I don’t get the joke. Why would a manager lose a clubhouse while winning?

i think that players get agitated when they are not doing their jobs and losing and then bitch and moan to reporters about the manager and they don’t do that when they are doing their jobs and winning.   But either way, I don’t think it has anything to do with a manager either having the clubhouse “under control.”  or not.   It has to do with players winning or not winning. 

[24fps]

22 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

It seems legit to me.  Buck made the worst managerial decision I’ve ever seen in the WC game last year.  It makes sense that the clubhouse would turn on him after that.  Not sure why this is so unbelievable to you.

Buck made a very, very bad decision during the post season last year.  No question.

So what do you suggest happened?  Did the team collectively decide to punish Buck for the entirety of the 2017 season?  Did some general malaise decend on the team on opening day and from then on it was a brave but doomed struggle to overcome the overwhelming and ultimately fatal psychic pain inflicted by Buck Showalter?

I think the problem with this column and every other lazy, speculative column vomited out by guys like Cafardo (and often Rosenthal when the subject is the Orioles) is nobody takes the trouble to imagine what would need to happen to effect what's being suggested.   Forget about holding the columnist accountable to what is usually patent nonsense.

 

Please describe to me what "losing a clubhouse" looks like and how it happened to the Orioles in 2017.

[OFFNY]

49 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

 

It seems legit to me. Buck made the worst managerial decision I’ve ever seen in the WC game last year. It makes sense that the clubhouse would turn on him after that. I'm not sure why this is so unbelievable to you.

 

o

 

If the team turned on Showalter after that loss in the 2016 Wildcard game, I don't see how they could have started the 2017 season at 22-10 for their first 32 games.

 

They had historically bad starting pitching overall, and were still somehow 3 games over .500 as late as September 5th. If anything, the team showed resilience for the first 5/6 of the season in spite of the fact that the starting pitching had often put them into insurmountable holes in the first few innings of many of their games, and that the bullpen subsequently had to pitch more innings than any team in the Majors except for the Reds, the Blue Jays, and the Marlins.

 

After September 5th, the team went a miserable 4-19 over their final 23 games of the season ........ but that was a very long time and many games after last year's Wildcard game loss.

 

o

[Enjoy Terror]

12 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

i think that players get agitated when they are not doing their jobs and losing and then bitch and moan to reporters about the manager and they don’t do that when they are doing their jobs and winning.   But either way, I don’t think it has anything to do with a manager either having the clubhouse “under control.”  or not.   It has to do with players winning or not winning. 

Buck is a manager with a high profile loss that most people have attributed to mismanagement. This isn’t in a vacuum obviously or it would be otherwise chalked up to bad luck.

This season may not necessarily be Buck’s to blame, but we got a lot of poor performances from some key players. It’s necessarily the manager’s job to coax good performances out of players (the Yankees do this well), it’s the managers job to put players in positions to succeed (I don’t believe this was the case with Tillman or Ubaldo), and it’s the managers job to inspire the team to play down the stretch, which the Orioles did not do.

Is it all Buck’s fault? No. But for a journalist to take in everything that happened to the Orioles and make a case that maybe Buck doesn’t have the confidence of his players? I don’t think that’s farfetched. I certainly haven’t seen the team look inspired to play baseball in over a month.

[ArtVanDelay]

30 minutes ago, OFFNY said:

o

 

If the team turned on Showalter after that loss in the 2016 Wildcard game, I don't see how they could have started the 2017 season at 22-10 for their first 32 games.

 

They had historically bad starting pitching overall, and were still somehow 3 games over .500 as late as September 5th. If anything, the team showed resilience for the first 5/6 of the season in spite of the fact that the starting pitching had often put them into insurmountable holes in the first few innings of many of their games, and that the bullpen subsequently had to pitch more innings than any team in the Majors except for the Reds, the Blue Jays, and the Marlins.

 

After September 5th, the team went a miserable 4-19 over their final 23 games of the season ........ but that was a very long time and many games after last year's Wildcard game loss.

 

o

That moment planted a seed of doubt in my mind about him.  I didn’t want him fired, but I also didn’t think quite as highly of him anymore.  Maybe the players felt the same way.  It could’ve snowballed into something bigger.

[OFFNY]

3 hours ago, ArtVanDelay said:

 

It seems legit to me. Buck made the worst managerial decision I’ve ever seen in the WC game last year. It makes sense that the clubhouse would turn on him after that. I'm not sure why this is so unbelievable to you.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, OFFNY said:

o

If the team turned on Showalter after that loss in the 2016 Wildcard game, I don't see how they could have started the 2017 season at 22-10 for their first 32 games.

 

They had historically bad starting pitching overall, and were still somehow 3 games over .500 as late as September 5th. If anything, the team showed resilience for the first 5/6 of the season in spite of the fact that the starting pitching had often put them into insurmountable holes in the first few innings of many of their games, and that the bullpen subsequently had to pitch more innings than any team in the Majors except for the Reds, the Blue Jays, and the Marlins.

 

After September 5th, the team went a miserable 4-19 over their final 23 games of the season ........ but that was a very long time and many games after last year's Wildcard game loss.

o

 

 

1 hour ago, ArtVanDelay said:

 

That moment planted a seed of doubt in my mind about him.  I didn’t want him fired, but I also didn’t think quite as highly of him anymore.  Maybe the players felt the same way.  It could’ve snowballed into something bigger.

 

o

 

Explain how a seed of doubt about a Wildcard playoff game in October of 2016 "snowballed" if they started the next season (2017) at 22-10?

 

And how did a team with an absolute mess of a starting rotation and an extremely overworked bullpen manage to stay in contention through early September if they were still pouting and dragging their feet about a bad decision made by their manager from a playoff game from the previous October? 

 

o

[Ohfan67]

4 hours ago, OFFNY said:

 

 

 

 

o

 

Explain how a seed of doubt about a Wildcard playoff game in October of 2016 "snowballed" if they started the next season (2017) at 22-10?

 

And how did a team with an absolute mess of a starting rotation and an extremely overworked bullpen manage to stay in contention through early September if they were still pouting and dragging their feet about a bad decision made by their manager from a playoff game from the previous October? 

 

o

They stayed in contention because the league was terrible.  That said, I think this report is meaningless.