Anyone else slowly growing tired with Buck?

[maybenxtyr]

35 minutes ago, Sessh said:

I would have gone hard after Francona in 2012 personally. It's not often that such a manager becomes available like that. There are better managers than Buck out there that haven't even been discovered yet. Who saw Dave Roberts coming? Heck, AJ Hinch won a WS in his third year as manager. There were guys out there to find and undoubtedly still are guys out there to find who would excel at being a manager. Other teams can find them and so could this one if we were interested. Maddon would have had a better chance than Showalter. The Orioles had the best competitive window since the late 90's and did nothing with it. Not even an ALCS win. That's pathetic. Showalter had a very good team in 2014 just like he had a good team in 1995 and 1999 and could lead them to nothing in the postseason.

That's funny. You would have fired a manager that just had the first winning season in forever?

I think a lot of the managers on your list are very good at what they do...but you can't be serious about comparing the rosters of most of those teams with what the Orioles have/had. 

Maybe 2014...maybe. Even that team had some serious holes by the time the playoffs arrived.

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Heh, oops. Indeed it would have been impossible, but I'm sure you knew what I meant anyways.

Yeah, just having fun with it.

Then you have the Nats, who have failed to get out of the NLDS with three different managers, so now they’re trying a fourth.     

[Moose Milligan]

10 minutes ago, Sessh said:

To an extent. Showalter single handedly lost the 2016 wild card game for us. That's not what I'd call a "crapshoot"; that's the result of bad decision making and the second such instance in Showalter's playoff career. Sure, maybe Britton comes in and gives up a walk off home run, but that's a lot easier to swallow because objectively, it was the right call and I wouldn't have blamed him for that outcome at all.

So, yes, there is a magnified "anything can happen" factor in the postseason, but the consequences of good and bad decision making are also magnified and Showalter always seems to be on the wrong end of that exchange. That's not a crapshoot. That is a man showing you his professional limitations.

I won't disagree with the 2016 Wildcard game, but not every manager gets it right.

[Sessh]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Yeah, just having fun with it.

Then you have the Nats, who have failed to get out of the NLDS with three different managers, so now they’re trying a fourth.     

Yeah, the picture is certainly different with the Nats. At least Angelos can be happy about something.

[Frobby]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

I won't disagree with the 2016 Wildcard game, but not every manager gets it right.

It’s very hard to say he singlehandedly lost the wild card game, even if you fault him for not bringing in Britton.     Even if you assume Britton gets out unscathed, there’s certainly no assurance that the Orioles would have scored before Toronto did.   The O’s had no hits and exactly one baserunner in the final five innings in that game, the one baserunner coming in the 7th inning.   They looked pathetic at the plate most of that game, especially in the later innings.

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, Frobby said:

It’s very hard to say he singlehandedly lost the wild card game, even if you fault him for not bringing in Britton.     Even if you assume Britton gets out unscathed, there’s certainly no assurance that the Orioles would have scored before Toronto did.   The O’s had no hits and exactly one baserunner in the final five innings in that game, the one baserunner coming in the 7th inning.   They looked pathetic at the plate most of that game, especially in the later innings.

Correct.  Yes, there's no reason to think that Buck lost that game.

I will say that he didn't give us the best chance to win it, though.  There's a difference.  

[Sessh]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I won't disagree with the 2016 Wildcard game, but not every manager gets it right.

No one is perfect. I don't expect Buck to be perfect, but that decision (and the one in 1995) were indefensible to me. Ubaldo Jimenez? The guy that was so bad that he got kicked out of the rotation and wasn't being used in high leverage situations? He was on mop-up duty out of the pen and HE is the guy you go to in, what inning was it, the 13th inning of a win-or-go-home WC game with the best relief pitcher in baseball in the bullpen ready to go? How do you turn your back on Britton in favor of Jimenez in that situation? Playing for the save in that situation? I'm sorry, but that is about as dumb as it gets. That's not expecting him to be perfect. I'm just expecting him to make intelligent decisions. Jimenez over Britton is not defensible. It's even worse that he left Jimenez in there even after he allowed runners on first and third with no outs and. again, Britton is ready to come in the game. You can't crap the bed like that in October and expect to win anything. How one can do something like that in 40% of his career playoff appearances is pretty bad considering how hard it is for a team to get there in the first place.

Oh well, I hope he can work his magic with another team in 2019 if he so chooses. Showalter is very, very good at what he can do. Quick turnarounds and lifting teams out of losing ways into relevancy and competitiveness. That's his bread and butter.

[Frobby]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

Correct.  Yes, there's no reason to think that Buck lost that game.

I will say that he didn't give us the best chance to win it, though.  There's a difference.  

I agree with the “best chance to win” point.    

[Sessh]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It’s very hard to say he singlehandedly lost the wild card game, even if you fault him for not bringing in Britton.     Even if you assume Britton gets out unscathed, there’s certainly no assurance that the Orioles would have scored before Toronto did.   The O’s had no hits and exactly one baserunner in the final five innings in that game, the one baserunner coming in the 7th inning.   They looked pathetic at the plate most of that game, especially in the later innings.

Going with Jimenez over Britton in that situation is losing the game singlehandedly, yes. It was THAT BAD of a decision. Jimenez wasn't even good.. at all. He pulled the rug out from under his team by losing that game the way he did with Britton standing around in the bullpen wondering why he's not in the game.

[Moose Milligan]

3 minutes ago, Sessh said:

No one is perfect. I don't expect Buck to be perfect, but that decision (and the one in 1995) were indefensible to me. Ubaldo Jimenez? The guy that was so bad that he got kicked out of the rotation and wasn't being used in high leverage situations? He was on mop-up duty out of the pen and HE is the guy you go to in, what inning was it, the 13th inning of a win-or-go-home WC game with the best relief pitcher in baseball in the bullpen ready to go? How do you turn your back on Britton in favor of Jimenez in that situation? Playing for the save in that situation? I'm sorry, but that is about as dumb as it gets. That's not expecting him to be perfect. I'm just expecting him to make intelligent decisions. Jimenez over Britton is not defensible. It's even worse that he left Jimenez in there even after he allowed runners on first and third with no outs and. again, Britton is ready to come in the game. You can't crap the bed like that in October and expect to win anything. How one can do something like that in 40% of his career playoff appearances is pretty bad considering how hard it is for a team to get there in the first place.

Oh well, I hope he can work his magic with another team in 2019 if he so chooses. Showalter is very, very good at what he can do. Quick turnarounds and lifting teams out of losing ways into relevancy and competitiveness. That's his bread and butter.

You're forgetting the context of that situation.  Ubaldo, coming down the stretch that year was (unbelievably) our best starter at the time.  He had reeled off a few good starts in a row.

[Frobby]

Just now, Sessh said:

No one is perfect. I don't expect Buck to be perfect, but that decision (and the one in 1995) were indefensible to me. Ubaldo Jimenez? The guy that was so bad that he got kicked out of the rotation and wasn't being used in high leverage situations?

Not trying to defend the decision, but you are forgetting that Jimenez re-entered the rotation on August 25, and made 7 starts down the stretch to a 2.45 ERA, including 6.2 shutout innings allowing one hit against Toronto in his final start of the year.    I’d say that was a high-leverage situation, seeing as the Orioles were one game behind the Blue Jays in a very tight wild card race at the time.    Your other points about Jimenez are fine, but people forget that he had been red hot prior to being used in the wild card game.   

[Sessh]

3 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

You're forgetting the context of that situation.  Ubaldo, coming down the stretch that year was (unbelievably) our best starter at the time.  He had reeled off a few good starts in a row.

No way, man. In Jimenez's last three starts of that year, two were five innings and he allowed four runs in those 10 innings. He did strike out 10 in one of them, but he allowed six runs in three innings in the other. He was terrible. He wasn't the best anything and even if he did have a few good starts, Jimenez is too erratic to count on in that situation especially over Zach f'in Britton. Jimenez should have been the last in line, not Britton.

[Sessh]

Just now, Sessh said:

No way, man. In Jimenez's last three starts of that year, two were five innings and he allowed four runs in those 10 innings. He did strike out 10 in one of them, but he allowed six runs in three innings in the other. He was terrible. He wasn't the best anything and even if he did have a few good starts, Jimenez is too erratic to count on in that situation especially over Zach f'in Britton. Jimenez should have been the last in line, not Britton.

Actually, nevermind. I was lookinga t 2017's stats. You're both right, he did have a nice finish. HOWEVER, is he a better option that Britton? In that situation? Even after Jimenez allows two guys on with no outs in the bottom of the 13th with Britton ready to go? You still don't bring him in? Jimenez can go bad at any time for any or no reason. Britton was as good as it gets and consistently so.

[Il BuonO]

7 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

You're forgetting the context of that situation.  Ubaldo, coming down the stretch that year was (unbelievably) our best starter at the time.  He had reeled off a few good starts in a row.

Still, with his inconsistency he’s not the right choice there.

 

[Moose Milligan]

8 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

Still, with his inconsistency he’s not the right choice there.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Actually, nevermind. I was lookinga t 2017's stats. You're both right, he did have a nice finish. HOWEVER, is he a better option that Britton? In that situation? Even after Jimenez allows two guys on with no outs in the bottom of the 13th with Britton ready to go? You still don't bring him in? Jimenez can go bad at any time for any or no reason. Britton was as good as it gets and consistently so.

Buck went with his hot hand.  Again, I'm not defending his position as I'd have gone with Britton too but I don't think what Buck did was completely indefensible.  As Frobby pointed out, Ubaldo was money down the stretch and he had schooled Toronto.

Now if he was typical Ubaldo with a 6 ERA and Toronto had just lit him up a few weeks prior it would be completely indefensible.