Our 3B Defense is Atrocious!

[Tony-OH]

47 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It’s still early to judge how Beckham will do over the whole season.    He looks ragged right now, but we’ve seen what he’s capable of when he’s hot.    

And speaking of early results, Tobias Myers has a 7.00 ERA in low A, with a WHIP of 2.00.    I won’t judge him on two starts any more than I’ll judge Beckham this early in the season.    Neither one is having an impressive start to 2018.

Lol, you are the king of not ready to judge anyone. Pretty sure I've put up Beckam's stats up after his 12-game white-hot streak to start off his Orioles career. It's more than just his slow start this year, but I'm sure you'll find some excuse for last year like everyone wasn't hitting last September so you won't judge him.  

Tim Beckam stats as an Oriole:

First 12 games: .531/.549/.939/1.488 
Last 54 games: .222/.268/.365/.634
First 29 games: .394/.417/.646/1.062
Last 37 games: .178./236/.316/.552

No matter how you chop him up, he hasn't been very good for awhile now. I don't necessarily think he's a .552 OPS guy or probably not even a .634 OPS guy, but is his probably at best a .720 OPS guy? Probably and is that good enough to be a major league third baseman? I'm not so sure. 

As for Myers, he's one of the youngest pitchers in his league and he still has stuck out a 10 in 9 innings despite his command issues (probably cold related). Last year he was one of the youngest pitchers in the NY-Penn League and struck out 38, walked four in five starts with TB affiliate over 26.1 IP.

Whether Myers stays healthy and keep developing or not, there was no need to trade him for a guy the Rays were trying to dump. Beckam had been replaced as the everyday shortstop and was not a good bench guy as he sulked when he didn't play. The Rays were actually behind the Orioles in the WC race (both were theoretically in the race though neither really were actual contenders) and traded a major league player for a low A-ball pitcher they targeted. 

If the Orioles were legitimate contenders last year I would not have had an issue with the trade, although I don't think they needed to give up Myers. The orioles had just tried to trade Britton but couldn't come to a deal so once they failed they decided to "go for it". The Rays wanted to dump Beckam, so it should not have taken a legitimate young starting pitching prospect. 

I just would not have made the trade and the fact that Beckam is about as advertised defensively no matter where you put him (Let's just say shaky), and his bat is another similar high strike out, low OBP bat that the Orioles have a ton of, and this trade did not help the Orioles get better, but made the Orioles organization weaker by losing one more possible young, cheap starting pitcher option.

 

 

[wildcard]

4 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Lol, you are the king of not ready to judge anyone. Pretty sure I've put up Beckam's stats up after his 12-game white-hot streak to start off his Orioles career. It's more than just his slow start this year, but I'm sure you'll find some excuse for last year like everyone wasn't hitting last September so you won't judge him.  

Tim Beckam stats as an Oriole:

First 12 games: .531/.549/.939/1.488 
Last 54 games: .222/.268/.365/.634
First 29 games: .394/.417/.646/1.062
Last 37 games: .178./236/.316/.552

No matter how you chop him up, he hasn't been very good for awhile now. I don't necessarily think he's a .552 OPS guy or probably not even a .634 OPS guy, but is his probably at best a .720 OPS guy? Probably and is that good enough to be a major league third baseman? I'm not so sure. 

As for Myers, he's one of the youngest pitchers in his league and he still has stuck out a 10 in 9 innings despite his command issues (probably cold related). Last year he was one of the youngest pitchers in the NY-Penn League and struck out 38, walked four in five starts with TB affiliate over 26.1 IP.

Whether Myers stays healthy and keep developing or not, there was no need to trade him for a guy the Rays were trying to dump. Beckam had been replaced as the everyday shortstop and was not a good bench guy as he sulked when he didn't play. The Rays were actually behind the Orioles in the WC race (both were theoretically in the race though neither really were actual contenders) and traded a major league player for a low A-ball pitcher they targeted. 

If the Orioles were legitimate contenders last year I would not have had an issue with the trade, although I don't think they needed to give up Myers. The orioles had just tried to trade Britton but couldn't come to a deal so once they failed they decided to "go for it". The Rays wanted to dump Beckam, so it should not have taken a legitimate young starting pitching prospect. 

I just would not have made the trade and the fact that Beckam is about as advertised defensively no matter where you put him (Let's just say shaky), and his bat is another similar high strike out, low OBP bat that the Orioles have a ton of, and this trade did not help the Orioles get better, but made the Orioles organization weaker by losing one more possible young, cheap starting pitcher option.

 

 

Kind of hard to judge guys when it 40 degrees and below.

[Tony-OH]

13 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Kind of hard to judge guys when it 40 degrees and below.

Lol, everyone else is playing under the same conditions this spring all over. 

[jabba72]

Only way the Beckham trade works out is if Myers doesn't turn into a solid SP.

[Beef Supreme]

13 hours ago, El Gordo said:

For the record, SSS, alert, but FB rates Beckham 8th among ML 3B on D and Fangraphs has him 6th in the AL. for D. His big problem so far has been his bat which will probably regress to his mean of around .740 OPS. Fangraphs has Many #2 behind Didi in WAR, in the AL,12th among SS on D.

It's common that shortstops who get moved to third show improvement in their defensive value relative to defensive position. Brooks aside, nearly every Gold Glove winner at third base was a converted shortstop. Beckham will never won a Gold Glove at third, but he was a serious defensive liability at shortstop.

A defensive alignment that places one of MLB's best fielding infielders at shortstop and moves a player whose defensive skills are best suited for left-field to third base is the smartest way to maximize the value of the defense.

[bobmc]

Beckham has gotten the better of the position trade. As a shortstop, the former Tampa Bay Ray had a UZR/150 of 10.3 in 2016 and 2.8 in 2017. As a third baseman with the O’s this year, he has a UZR/150 of 11.1. If that number holds, it would be the best full season of defense in his career so far. In fact, it would be the best season put up by a Baltimore third baseman since Machado’s 2014 campaign.

https://www.camdenchat.com/2018/4/16/17240868/orioles-defense-fielding-stats-errors-bad-gold-gloves-manny-macahdo-2018

[Legend_Of_Joey]

14 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

It's common that shortstops who get moved to third show improvement in their defensive value relative to defensive position. Brooks aside, nearly every Gold Glove winner at third base was a converted shortstop. Beckham will never won a Gold Glove at third, but he was a serious defensive liability at shortstop.

A defensive alignment that places one of MLB's best fielding infielders at shortstop and moves a player whose defensive skills are best suited for left-field to third base is the smartest way to maximize the value of the defense.

Explains why they moved Mountcastle from shortstop to 3rd...

[Can_of_corn]

19 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

It's common that shortstops who get moved to third show improvement in their defensive value relative to defensive position. Brooks aside, nearly every Gold Glove winner at third base was a converted shortstop. Beckham will never won a Gold Glove at third, but he was a serious defensive liability at shortstop.

A defensive alignment that places one of MLB's best fielding infielders at shortstop and moves a player whose defensive skills are best suited for left-field to third base is the smartest way to maximize the value of the defense.

Serious defensive liability?

I think that is rather significantly exaggerating the issue.

Mountcastle is what a serious defensive liability at shortstop looks like.

 

[Beef Supreme]

Mountcastle's throwing arm appears to be a "crippling" liability defensively at both shortstop and at third.

[spiritof66]

 Is anyone surprised at the defensive mess created by Schoop's injury? Chris Davis was a part-time 3Bman until he proved he couldn't hold down that position. In building their "bench," the Orioles added in Alvarez and Valencia a platoon of guys who also washed out as third sackers. Beckham has a shot to become the fourth failed third baseman on the team, and from the little I've seen and everything I've read Mountcastle will be added to that list, probably before he gets to the big club.

The Orioles elected to build their ML roster without a utility man, counting heavily (I think) on the positional versatility of Machado and Beckham and on Valencia's ability to fill in at third every once in a while -- which I thought was a rotten idea for a guy who, at 33, likely has lost much of whatever 3B skill and range he may have had. (I hadn't thought of this until the Boston series, but putting Danny at 3B and accepting  the cost of defense there once in a while probably would have been less harmful on last year's high-scoring, crappy-pitching Oriole team than on what looks like it will be a lower-scoring offense and better-pitching team this year.)

Obviously, you can't plan for who will get injured, or when. (Let's put the Greg Bird and David Segui it's-only-a-matter-of-when types aside.)  Part of the value of Ryan Flaherty was that, while using up just one roster space, you could plug him in almost anywhere  on the field that a need arose and maintain pretty good defense. As I've written before, he was in that sense among the most, if not the most, efficient bench guys in baseball -- certainly not the best but among the most efficient.

You don't need that efficiency -- it's a nice thing to  have, but you don't need it -- if you're the Red Sox, say, with MiL position players who you think are ready to promote in the event of an injury. Obviously, that's not the Orioles -- in large part because their middle-infield draft choices didn't work out positionally and, I'll say for the 114th time, because their decision not to pursue Latin American free agents makes it extremely difficult to build MiL depth.

In "go for it" mode, the Orioles filled out the ML roster with a platoon of sluggers who are liabilities in the field.  (then are the Rule 5 guys, and Tillman  . . ) They knew they were leaving themselves exposed to the risk of an injury to any of their three infielders. That weakness  has been exposed in a hurry. 

Get well soon, Jon -- but don't rush it. We need to show a productive Schoop to potential trade partners.  

 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

Mountcastle's throwing arm appears to be a "crippling" liability defensively at both shortstop and at third.

If you would like to go ahead and support your statement that Beckham is a "severe defensive liability" at short I'll be pleased to read it and maybe learn something.

If not I'll stick with my statement that a phrase like that is best served to describe someone like Mountcastle.

[Beef Supreme]

I think the priority for the Orioles was Gentry's strong outfield defense over Flaherty's "efficiency."

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

I think the priority for the Orioles was Gentry's strong outfield defense over Flaherty's "efficiency."

They did need at least one guy in the outfield that could actually go get the ball.

[Beef Supreme]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

If you would like to go ahead and support your statement that Beckham is a "severe defensive liability" at short I'll be pleased to read it and maybe learn something.

If not I'll stick with my statement that a phrase like that is best served to describe someone like Mountcastle.

I will stick with my original statement that Beckham is a "serious defensive liability" (please quote me correctly if you are going to quote me) at shortstop because he is. Mountcastle can not play there because is physically unable. Therein lays the difference; Mountcastle's sub-par throwing arm is a "crippling liability."

Your argument is semantics. You don't like the connotations. Your personal fine tuning is ýour preference and it's fine by me if you stick by them. I think my words accurately express my opinion to the majority of readers and I will stick by my original statement.

[Beef Supreme]

To bust my own balls, is not every defensive liability a "serious" issue?