HOF 2nd Basemen?

[Lt Melmo]

You know what I mean, try actually responding with some substance.

[Chollie Eckman]

You know what I mean, try actually responding with some substance.

Hey you jumped on me brother. He's HOF, but I'm not ready to deify him like some others. He's good. Not great. Great was Sandberg or Morgan numbers.

BTW, one of the best ever for a second baseman and he wasn't an MVP? Must have been a live ball that year. Don't you think?

[mweb]

You don't know Eddie Murray then. If he played in the 90's instead of the 70's he'd have 600 homers. A switch hitting power hitter who was Mr. Clutch before Ortiz. They invented the GWRBI because of him.

I'm not saying Biggio is not HOF material. However, ask yourself this - "If Biggio hits only 2500 hits and retires 5 years ago is he in the HOF?" It's a good question. He's in because of his stats BECAUSE of his longevity. Alomar was a better 2nd baseman in his prime. Let Alomar play 20 full seasons and he's a HOF lock moreso than Biggio. Besides, in every season Bagwell and Biggio played together in the '90's who do you think would have brought more trade value? Bagwell might not make the HOF.

I'd like to hear Drungo's take on all of this

WARP3 adjusts for era, and still rates Biggio's peak as being better than Murray's.

And again, most players make the HOF because they were able to play a very long time, along with obviously being very good players. However, Biggio was a great player and had a strong peak.

[BaltimoreTerp]

You don't know Eddie Murray then. If he played in the 90's instead of the 70's he'd have 600 homers. A switch hitting power hitter who was Mr. Clutch before Ortiz. They invented the GWRBI because of him.

I'm not saying Biggio is not HOF material. However, ask yourself this - "If Biggio hits only 2500 hits and retires 5 years ago is he in the HOF?" It's a good question. He's in because of his stats BECAUSE of his longevity. Alomar was a better 2nd baseman in his prime. Let Alomar play 20 full seasons and he's a HOF lock moreso than Biggio. Besides, in every season Bagwell and Biggio played together in the '90's who do you think would have brought more trade value? Bagwell might not make the HOF.

I'd like to hear Drungo's take on all of this

What's wrong with consistency, especially when it's consistently GOOD.

Interestingly, according to BaseballReference.com, Alomar and Biggio are very similar offense-wise. Morgan and Sandberg are numbers three and six. Robin Yount, Paul Molitor, Cal Ripken, Brooks Robinson, and Charlie Gehringer are one, four, and seven-through-nine. The only non hall-of-famers on the list are Lou Whitaker at five and Vada Pinson at ten.

Looks to be like he compares to some pretty good players.

[mweb]

What's wrong with consistency, especially when it's consistently GOOD.

Interestingly, according to BaseballReference.com, Alomar and Biggio are very similar offense-wise.

Alomar has these advantages on offense:

.296 EQA compared to .286

437 BRAA compared to 376

.814 OPS compared to .800

OPS+ of 116 compared to 113

474/588 in steals compared to 413/536

5.89 RC/27 compared to 5.45

Alomar was also better defensively. Biggio's biggest advantage's seem to be the small stats like HBP and GIDP. HBP is factored into EQA, it might be with BRAA and RC/27, not sure. Don't know about double plays, didn't see it mentioned with any of the stats.

[Chollie Eckman]

What's wrong with consistency, especially when it's consistently GOOD.

Interestingly, according to BaseballReference.com, Alomar and Biggio are very similar offense-wise. Morgan and Sandberg are numbers three and six. Robin Yount, Paul Molitor, Cal Ripken, Brooks Robinson, and Charlie Gehringer are one, four, and seven-through-nine. The only non hall-of-famers on the list are Lou Whitaker at five and Vada Pinson at ten.

Looks to be like he compares to some pretty good players.

What are we comparing here? Yount and Ripken are shortstops. Gehringer was a second baseman. Brooks was a third baseman. Pinson was an outfielder? It's a good thing Sports Guy didn't read this. I think the numbers are code and it's programming for his head to explode.

[mweb]

What are we comparing here? Yount and Ripken are shortstops. Gehringer was a second baseman. Brooks was a third baseman. Pinson was an outfielder? It's a good thing Sports Guy didn't read this. I think the numbers are code and it's programming for his head to explode.

Considering Biggio played his career at the weakest hitting positions(besides SS), I don't see what the problem is with comparing his stats to HOF'ers who also mostly played the weakest hitting positions.

[Chollie Eckman]

Considering Biggio played his career at the weakest hitting positions(besides SS), I don't see what the problem is with comparing his stats to HOF'ers who also mostly played the weakest hitting positions.

C'mon you guys. Biggio is not that GREAT. I've given a nod to his HOF status, but to consistently call him one of the greatest middle infielders of all time is ludicrous.

[mweb]

C'mon you guys. Biggio is not that GREAT. I've given a nod to his HOF status, but to consistently call him one of the greatest middle infielders of all time is ludicrous.

Well if being in the top 10(maybe top 5) ever at second base is not among the greatest, then yes, I agree.

[BaltimoreTerp]

What are we comparing here? Yount and Ripken are shortstops. Gehringer was a second baseman. Brooks was a third baseman. Pinson was an outfielder? It's a good thing Sports Guy didn't read this. I think the numbers are code and it's programming for his head to explode.

I already told you; they are his top offensive comparisons from Baseball-Reference. Basically, eight Hall-of-Famers and two very good players.

Unless you are willing to call those guys "not THAT great", you don't have an argument other then simply not liking him.

[Chollie Eckman]

Raffy's comparables

1. Frank Robinson

2. Eddie Murray

3. Dave Winfield

4. Reggie Jackson

5. Mel Ott

6. Al Kaline

7. Fred McGriff

8. Carl Yastrzemski

9. Harold Baines

10. Willie Mays

Is he on your ballot? Or you just don't like him?

[mweb]

Raffy's comparables

1. Frank Robinson

2. Eddie Murray

3. Dave Winfield

4. Reggie Jackson

5. Mel Ott

6. Al Kaline

7. Fred McGriff

8. Carl Yastrzemski

9. Harold Baines

10. Willie Mays

Is he on your ballot? Or you just don't like him?

Based on performance, there is no doubt he is a HOF'er. 138.8 WARP3, 569 hr's, 3,020 hits, 16th in runs created, 14th in RBI, 29th in runs, and 10th in total bases.

[Moose Milligan]

What are we comparing here? Yount and Ripken are shortstops. Gehringer was a second baseman. Brooks was a third baseman. Pinson was an outfielder? It's a good thing Sports Guy didn't read this. I think the numbers are code and it's programming for his head to explode.

Not to pick nits, but Yount didn't play most of his career at SS like Ripken did.

[Migrant Redbird]

Raffie would be a first ballot HOF selection if the stanazol doesn't trip him up. McGwire was only suspected of using steroids; Palmeiro actually tested positive for it. While I tend to consider the B-12 injection as a credible hypothesis, the fact remains that he did test positive and there was no conclusive evidence that he didn't take the stuff voluntarily.

Palmeiro is 23rd in career hits; everyone in the top 39 who is eligible is already in the HOF. (Baines is 40th.)

Palmeiro is 10th in career home runs; everyone in the top 30 who is eligible is already in the HOF except for McGwire.

Palmeiro is 29th in career runs scored; everyone in front of him that's eligible is already in the HOF.

Palmeiro is 14th in career RBIs; everyone in the top 30 who is eligible is already in the HOF.

Palmeiro is 16th in RC; everyone in the top 44 who is eligible is already in the HOF. (Baines is 45th.)

[TGO]

I don't understand why there's all the love for Biggio and not as much for Big Frank.

On a sportsnation poll the majority of people said that Biggio was a lock and a first ballot hall of famer. I don't agree with that, but not enough to really argue about it. What upset me most was that the same poll for Frank Thomas said he was a hall-of-famer but not on the first ballot.

I don't understand how or why Frank has fallen in the eyes of so many people. He's had an OPS over 1.000 in seven different seasons and his career OPS is .985. He was having one of the greatest seasons ever in the strike-shortened 1994 season.

Granted, he had injury problems and was relegated to DH duties, but even when he was hurt he bounced back with awesome seasons in 2000 and 2003. While Biggio was just hanging on in 2006 as a marginal major leaguer, Frank went to a new team and was 4th in the MVP voting. Many people thought he deserved to win the MVP.

Yet still there was another poll that asked "Who had the better career, Frank Thomas or Craig Biggio?" and Biggio carried every state except three. IMO, this isn't even close. Biggio was a good player and likely a HOFer, but he doesn't belong in the same category as Frank.

Frank Thomas is one of the 50 greatest players ever, and if you would've asked me in 1995 if he would be as forgotten as he is now, I would've laughed at you.

Is it because his best years came in the Strike Era?

Is it because of his messy divorce with the White Sox?

What's the deal?

My guess is that Thomas is overlooked somewhat because he spent so much time at DH (and when he did play first he was not good), and because he missed about two and a half seasons (2001, 04, 05) with injuries. Also he played in the "steroid era" (which could probably more appropriately be called the "small ballpark era"), and while he is not necessarily under suspicion, I think everyone's numbers in that era are being taken with a grain of salt.

Frank's a Hall of Famer. No doubt in my mind. Like BTerp said, I try not to worry so much about first ballot or not.