HOF 2nd Basemen?

[Chollie Eckman]

He makes it but longevity was clearly the biggest factor. It's amazing that a guy with that build lasted that long playing some of the most physically demanding positions in baseball.

There are more "famous" people that also deserve enshrinement.

[mweb]

He makes it but longevity was clearly the biggest factor. It's amazing that a guy with that build lasted that long playing some of the most physically demanding positions in baseball.

There are more "famous" people that also deserve enshrinement.

Like who? And despite the name, the HOF is about being great at baseball, not about being famous while playing baseball.

And most hall of famers wouldn't be in the HOF if they didn't have a long career. And even if Biggio retired a few years ago, he'd have a strong HOF resume. I'm personally not a big fan of the way of thinking that requires players to be mediocre for a few years at their end of their careers in order to get to certain milestones which assure's their enshrinement into the Hall.

[Lt Melmo]

I'm amazed people pull the longevity argument with Biggio. He had a fantastic peak. Didn't Bill James say something like his 94-98 seasons were some of the best ever for a second basemen?

OPS+/EQA/WARP3

1994: 138/.323/9.7

1995: 141/.320/11.0

1996: 121/.297/9.1

1997: 143/.325/13.1

1998: 139/.320/10.1

First ballot for sure. It's kind of insulting that there's even a debate.

[mweb]

I'm amazed people pull the longevity argument with Biggio. He had a fantastic peak. Didn't Bill James say something like his 94-98 seasons were some of the best ever for a second basemen?

OPS+/EQA/WARP3

1994: 138/.323/9.7

1995: 141/.320/11.0

1996: 121/.297/9.1

1997: 143/.325/13.1

1998: 139/.320/10.1

First ballot for sure. It's kind of insulting that there's even a debate.

James' had Biggio as the 5th best 2nd baseman ever and 35th best player ever after the 2000 season. He also felt Biggio was the best player in baseball at the time of his writing the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.

He says "Biggio has the best 'little stats' of any player in baseball history." He then makes this comparison using Biggio's 1997 season: "If you compare him to, let's say, Jim Rice in 1984, Biggio has a hidden advantage of 69 extra times on base, since he was hit by pitches 33 more times, and beat the throw to first on a double play attempt 36 more times. Those little stats that get left out of USA Today, in this comparison, have an impact of roughly equivalent to 100 points of batting average."

That is basically the most extreme example he could have chosen though, so don't think it's as random as he makes it sound. Jim Rice had the most GIDP's in history that year, while Biggio had none and the 8th highest HBP in a year compared to Rice's one. And when I say history, I mean since they starting recording those stats.

I personally wouldn't put Biggio that high, but he is very underrated.

BTW, those "little stats" don't favor a certain SS who is about to go into the HOF. First ever in GIDP's. Only HBP 66 times.

[TGO]

I'm amazed people pull the longevity argument with Biggio. He had a fantastic peak. Didn't Bill James say something like his 94-98 seasons were some of the best ever for a second basemen?

OPS+/EQA/WARP3

1994: 138/.323/9.7

1995: 141/.320/11.0

1996: 121/.297/9.1

1997: 143/.325/13.1

1998: 139/.320/10.1

First ballot for sure. It's kind of insulting that there's even a debate.

BUT IT'S THE HALL OF FAME, NOT HALL OF VERY GOOD!!!!!!111

/takes finger off "Cowherd" button/

Whoops, sorry.

I agree, Biggio's an absolute no brainer.

[Chollie Eckman]

James' had Biggio as the 5th best 2nd baseman ever and 35th best player ever after the 2000 season. He also felt Biggio was the best player in baseball at the time of his writing the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.

Please. There are probably 35 outfielders better than him.

Best player in all of baseball? And you believe that?

Biggio never won an MVP, but neither did Murray. Who would you rather have in their prime?

[Lt Melmo]

Please. There are probably 35 outfielders better than him.

Best player in all of baseball? And you believe that?

Biggio never won an MVP, but neither did Murray. Who would you rather have in their prime?

And Murray didn't play second base.

[mweb]

Please. There are probably 35 outfielders better than him.

Best player in all of baseball? And you believe that?

Biggio never won an MVP, but neither did Murray. Who would you rather have in their prime?

I did say that I think James overrates Biggio, although he makes some good points. As far as 35 outfielders being better than him, that may be so in terms of hitting, but you have to consider position and defense. And I'd take Biggio in his prime over Murray.

[Mackus]

Biggio is an absolute lock for the Hall. Anybody who doesn't think so isn't watching the same game.

I'd also put Alomar in, but probably leave Jeff Kent out, would have to look at Kent's numbers a bit more in depth though.

The only other guy from this era that I think gets in will be Chase Utley. He started his career late (first full season at 26) but if he can sustain his current (or close to it) level of play until his mid to late 30s, he'll put up some awfully good numbers, and is clearly the best 2B around today, so he should rack up the AS games and Silver Slugger awards for the next handful of seasons.

[O-Arm36]

I don't understand why there's all the love for Biggio and not as much for Big Frank.

On a sportsnation poll the majority of people said that Biggio was a lock and a first ballot hall of famer. I don't agree with that, but not enough to really argue about it. What upset me most was that the same poll for Frank Thomas said he was a hall-of-famer but not on the first ballot.

I don't understand how or why Frank has fallen in the eyes of so many people. He's had an OPS over 1.000 in seven different seasons and his career OPS is .985. He was having one of the greatest seasons ever in the strike-shortened 1994 season.

Granted, he had injury problems and was relegated to DH duties, but even when he was hurt he bounced back with awesome seasons in 2000 and 2003. While Biggio was just hanging on in 2006 as a marginal major leaguer, Frank went to a new team and was 4th in the MVP voting. Many people thought he deserved to win the MVP.

Yet still there was another poll that asked "Who had the better career, Frank Thomas or Craig Biggio?" and Biggio carried every state except three. IMO, this isn't even close. Biggio was a good player and likely a HOFer, but he doesn't belong in the same category as Frank.

Frank Thomas is one of the 50 greatest players ever, and if you would've asked me in 1995 if he would be as forgotten as he is now, I would've laughed at you.

Is it because his best years came in the Strike Era?

Is it because of his messy divorce with the White Sox?

What's the deal?

[BaltimoreTerp]

The idea of "first-ballot" is a load of crap anyway, so don't pay attention to that.

The question of Murray vs. Biggio is interesting. In raw numbers, you go with the power in Murray. However, Biggio played three positions well in his career, and had great numbers for each.

You can find a 35-home run first baseman (although obviously not as good as Murray), but even now a 20+ home run, 40+ double, 30+ stolen base player, especially as a catcher, second baseman, or centerfielder is amazingly valuable.

[isestrex]

Who would you guys prefer to have...Alomar or Biggio?

Could you be more specific SG?

If you mean, "It's 1986 and we have the option of acquiring Craig Biggo or Sandy Alomar's kid to a minor league contract, who do you take?" Then the answer is easily Biggio.

Biggio has shown that he is long lasting and loyal to his team. Can you imagine Biggio playing 20 seasons with the O's? Can you imagin 15+ years of a Ripken/Biggo douple play combination? They would have been the next Trammel and Whittaker.

But if you are saying, "Who do you want in their prime?" Then I'd have to go with Alomar. If you were to ask who would you take in the mid 90's to a multi-year deal, I'd still say Alomar.

[Chollie Eckman]

I did say that I think James overrates Biggio, although he makes some good points. As far as 35 outfielders being better than him, that may be so in terms of hitting, but you have to consider position and defense. And I'd take Biggio in his prime over Murray.

You don't know Eddie Murray then. If he played in the 90's instead of the 70's he'd have 600 homers. A switch hitting power hitter who was Mr. Clutch before Ortiz. They invented the GWRBI because of him.

I'm not saying Biggio is not HOF material. However, ask yourself this - "If Biggio hits only 2500 hits and retires 5 years ago is he in the HOF?" It's a good question. He's in because of his stats BECAUSE of his longevity. Alomar was a better 2nd baseman in his prime. Let Alomar play 20 full seasons and he's a HOF lock moreso than Biggio. Besides, in every season Bagwell and Biggio played together in the '90's who do you think would have brought more trade value? Bagwell might not make the HOF.

I'd like to hear Drungo's take on all of this

[Lt Melmo]

You don't know Eddie Murray then. If he played in the 90's instead of the 70's he'd have 600 homers. A switch hitting power hitter who was Mr. Clutch before Ortiz. They invented the GWRBI because of him.

I'm not saying Biggio is not HOF material. However, ask yourself this - "If Biggio hits only 2500 hits and retires 5 years ago is he in the HOF?" It's a good question. He's in because of his stats BECAUSE of his longevity. Alomar was a better 2nd baseman in his prime. Let Alomar play 20 full seasons and he's a HOF lock moreso than Biggio. Besides, in every season Bagwell and Biggio played together in the '90's who do you think would have brought more trade value? Bagwell might not make the HOF.

I'd like to hear Drungo's (the Hangout's Tim Kirkjian) take on all of this

Did you seriously not read any of our posts about his peak? At all? One of the best ever for a third basemen? No?

[Chollie Eckman]

Did you seriously not read any of our posts about his peak? At all? One of the best ever for a third basemen? No?

I must have missed that.