Joseph for the second time calls out the team

[Tony-OH]

17 hours ago, weams said:

Who here believe that all three will go? Anyone? One person? 

I'm honestly done guessing. If I had a gun to my head and had to choose, I'm going with my mid-season guess that Brady is the only one left standing, but until I hear publicly from John Angelos, that's just a guess at this point.

[Redskins Rick]

Just now, Tony-OH said:

I'm honestly done guessing. If I had a gun to my head and had to choose, I'm going with my mid-season guess that Brady is the only one left standing, but until I hear publicly from John Angelos, that's just a guess at this point.

Buck is gone.

I am torn about DD, i think there is still a 40-60 chance that he stays to rebuild this team.

As for manager, I think they are committed to being cheap for a couple of years while they rebuild, so that tells me, they move AAA dude up here.

As for Brady, thats a good question, I think he stays, but maybe with a different role and job title.

[AnythingO's]

I think Buck is gone.

I think Brady stays, probably no title change but a clarification of duties. I think he serves a Oriole ambassador and does the warm and fuzzy stuff DD is no good at (Cobb, Cashner). In the Brady interview he specifically said assume more duties to help "Dan" do his job, not the GM. He specifically said Dan.

I think DD stays on a 2-3 year contract to finish what has been started. I believe DD sold John-Louis on the fire sale, Intl. slot $$ acquisition, and expanded focus on scouting, player development. We need the VVM situation to be resolved positively and now is no time to trade horses.

[Sessh]

It's amazing how many people seemed to miss some of the point of Caleb's message. He is not trying to motivate guys this year and it's not some kind of rallying call. Caleb is thinking about the offseason, next year and beyond regardless of whether or not he's here. Someone had to say it and he did and yes, that is something leaders do.

Also, this idea that we should look at his performance and even compare him to former players in order to determine whether or not his words mean anything or will make a difference is absurd to me. Either his words are right or they're not, period. Caleb is 100% right and I'm glad he's speaking his mind. I would not be disappointed to see him back next year and I agree with the sentiment that he could be a great manager in the future.

His stats don't mean S. His words do. It feels to me almost a form of ad hominem attacks against Joseph. It's like, "Oh, his numbers are bad and he's just a backup catcher, so no one should listen to him and his words couldn't possibly make any difference in anything. He should just shut up! How dare he!" and it's attacking the messenger for doing something that we need more of not only in matters of sports, but generally in everything. To do this, to me, is to completely miss the point by focusing on irrelevant information instead of the important information. Good for him. I hope he does more of it.

Meanwhile, Showalter is a guy that was never good enough to play a single game in the major leagues. It's a wonder anyone ever listened to him about anything baseball related going by this logic. Showalter shouldn't be in baseball at all. Never played a single game at the major league level. His stats suck! That is to say, he has no ML stats because he never made it that far. It's amazing anyone ever puts a microphone in front of his mouth at all much less gets to manage a baseball team and influence personnel decisions in any way. Who does he think he is anyway? /s

[wildbillhiccup]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

I'm honestly done guessing. If I had a gun to my head and had to choose, I'm going with my mid-season guess that Brady is the only one left standing, but until I hear publicly from John Angelos, that's just a guess at this point.

A bit ironic considering I think he's the one who needs to go the most. 

[foxfield]

Kudos for Joseph calling the O's out.  He is not specific, but it sure sounds to me like he means management and ownership. In a season that is obliterating the franchise record in loses, I really don't care who is calling who out.  It continues to baffle me that no one has lost a job here.  And I don't mean Tillman.  We are now embarking on a complete rebuild and yet, we continue to see the same questions that have faced this team since September a year ago.  The Orioles, for whatever reason hit a wall last year and it seems that they are completely willing to just run out the clock on contracts they have been unable to move.  We have folks that defend DD or Buck and even Brady.  I have defended all three at times.  We hear of dysfunction and we see zero accountability.  Zip.  Nada.  None.

1 - GM - Not fired, not absolved, not promoted.  His contract ends when the season ends.  At the deadline it looked as if he may be returning to run the rebuild. But if he were, announcing that already would make sense and his first move could have been either firing Buck or extending him.  I have said I would be ok with DD returning as I do think he has been very much obstructed.  But, increasingly, I think he is gone.

2 -  Manager - Buck has been a tremendous asset to the Orioles.  But clearly for whatever reason, his message no longer resonates.  This team has lost 120 games or so since last Sept.  Buck's record as an Oriole manager is now a losing record.  In spite of his vast knowledge and experience, his time here has to be over.  If it was to be otherwise, like above, working that out before this season would have made a lot more sense.  Instead, we have a manager whose contract ends with the season and he remains unfired, not absolved, not promoted.  In fact, he seems completely unaccountable.  Even for those who continue to want him to continue, at his salary, he no longer makes sense.  

3 - Best Player - Well, that used to be Manny Machado but he is gone.  The Orioles managed to make a pretty good deal in moving him, but this was a break up that could have gone oh so differently.  There was a time, it is now known that the Orioles could have extended him.  A risky move but one that comes with the territory.  It didn't happen.  Instead like Mussina, Cruz, Markakis he is gone and wont return.  But it's not because the Orioles will not commit money.  (See Davis, Chris and Trumbo, Mark)

4 - Team Capitan - Adam Jones has been the front line guy and has been a pretty stand up guy too.  He entered the season in the final year of his contract as well.  The Orioles, eliminated in May listless by the all star break, couldn't get Jones to agree to be moved.  Entirely within his right and as I have stated before, if I were his agent, I would have done the same thing.  But this season plays out in a way that likely leaves Adam Jones and the Orioles no longer in a happy marriage and likely with hurt feelings we haven't seen since Murray and Mussina.

5 - SP - At the end of last season, the Orioles had expiring contracts on three of their starting pitchers including the workhorse of the Era, Chris Tillman.  Faced with all of the above, the Orioles could have begun a rebuild last offseason or they could have gone all in.  They chose neither.  Waiting until spring training to nab Cobb and Cashner and of course Tillman.  The opening day roster included not one, not two, but 3 Rule V players.  The result, only the worst season in franchise history.  Now, Bundy is questionable and Gausman is gone.  Bad luck?  Sure.  But this looks poorly designed and horrendously executed.

6 - Closer - Zach Britton was the lights out reliever who will forever be remembered like Mussina...for not coming in to pitch.  The Orioles could have extended him, or traded him, but like all of the above, they chose to do nothing in the offseason and go for it.  Of course, Britton was injured in the offseason and shelved till May.  He still managed to bring a pretty good return but many continue to wonder if his situation could not have been handled differently.  Again was it just bad luck?  Indecision?  Someone once said:  Be decisive, Right or wrong, make a decision.  The road of life is paved with flat squirrels who couldn't make a decision.  

7 - International Market - One of the lone bright spots of this year is the announcement that the Orioles will be players in the international market going forward.  Well, that remains to be seen and for many the only saving grace of the Gausman deal will be if the international pool money obtained nets Victor Victor Mesa and perhaps his brother.  If the organization seemed like it had a plan, this would be tremendous news.  But until we see results....

8 -  Legal issue with MASN.  Who knows how this ends, but almost no-one thinks the Orioles are the winner.

9 - Brady Anderson could be the last man standing.  Of course that means he could also be the GM, Manager opening day lead off hitter playing CF.  But I don't think that is going to happen. 

 

I can wear whatever number this seasons stamps on Oriole history.  I'll get up and dust off like most everyone else here will.  They Orioles don't truly owe us anything really.  The Orioles are a massive investment and we don't own them.  Even though our investment is also large in terms of emotion and money.  But I do think as owners of a business, a declaration of accountability and a statement of forward looking projections and the methods that will be taken to achieve those goals are in order.  

Maintaining the status quo going forward is certainly possible.  The Orioles collapsed to finish last in '17, chose not to rebuild or go all in and now have 2018 to carry as a painful scar, with perhaps several more seasons before recovery.  We have seen hints that changes will come, but yet we still limp forward with a GM, Manager and Captain who increasingly look like they are trapped in a room and can't wait to escape.  We have traded the best player to come up through our system since Cal Ripken Jr and the best reliever we have ever had.   If the Angelos sons are taking over for their father, the time has come to address the failings of the organization.  Failing to do so beginning Oct 1, 2018 would continue the mindset that has carried the Orioles since the aftermath of 2017.  "We are going for it!"  

We know now we are not.  It's time for accountability.

And to ownership, honestly, I appreciate going for it.  And I loved that 5 years where the Orioles had the best record in the American League.  I loved being back in the playoffs and when I close my eyes, I can still hear the sound of the crowd when Delmon Young doubled to score Hardy.  And if we went too long to keep it going for an owner who wanted a ring, well I can live with that and everything that it means.  But when the season ends, an accounting is due and that accountability will demand change not words about change.  And it will demand action, not words about action.

The window is now closed.

[wildbillhiccup]

1 hour ago, AnythingO's said:

I think Buck is gone.

I think Brady stays, probably no title change but a clarification of duties. I think he serves a Oriole ambassador and does the warm and fuzzy stuff DD is no good at (Cobb, Cashner). In the Brady interview he specifically said assume more duties to help "Dan" do his job, not the GM. He specifically said Dan.

I think DD stays on a 2-3 year contract to finish what has been started. I believe DD sold John-Louis on the fire sale, Intl. slot $$ acquisition, and expanded focus on scouting, player development. We need the VVM situation to be resolved positively and now is no time to trade horses.

I just don't see how you (successfully) walk him back down from what we suspect is complete autonomy. You can clarify his role, but the fox will still be in the hen house. 

[Aglets]

If a player in the clubhouse reports that Buck is strangling animals in the clubhouse after losses (to use hyperbole) I don't think it should really matter if it's Manny Machado, Adam Jones, or John Andreoli being the messenger.   It's probably worthy of our concern whoever is reporting the issue.

[LC_O's_87]

The benefit to removing all of the top decision makers is it leaves all players in the organization totally uncertain as to their status/place in the pecking order.

Given the very fluid division of authority over the last several years, there's no doubt that some guys are "Buck" guys, some "DD" guys and some "Brady" guys.  

I also think that kind of shuts off most if not all of the complacency that Caleb is warning about in his interview.  New guy at the top means everyone (except Chris Davis) is playing for their future.  

Clean house...

[wildbillhiccup]

2 minutes ago, LC_O's_87 said:

The benefit to removing all of the top decision makers is it leaves all players in the organization totally uncertain as to their status/place in the pecking order.

Given the very fluid division of authority over the last several years, there's no doubt that some guys are "Buck" guys, some "DD" guys and some "Brady" guys.  

I also think that kind of shuts off most if not all of the complacency that Caleb is warning about in his interview.  New guy at the top means everyone (except Chris Davis) is playing for their future.  

Clean house...

This is a really good point. Also, to build upon it aren't we in a position where we need to rebuild the team AND the organization? If their stance for the team rebuild is that you need to tear it down and start over, why wouldn't the same strategy apply to the organization? We need new people with new ideas. #tearitdown

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

A bit ironic considering I think he's the one who needs to go the most. 

Let me make clear, that's not what I want to happen, but what I think could happen.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, foxfield said:

Kudos for Joseph calling the O's out.  He is not specific, but it sure sounds to me like he means management and ownership. In a season that is obliterating the franchise record in loses, I really don't care who is calling who out.  It continues to baffle me that no one has lost a job here.  And I don't mean Tillman.  We are now embarking on a complete rebuild and yet, we continue to see the same questions that have faced this team since September a year ago.  The Orioles, for whatever reason hit a wall last year and it seems that they are completely willing to just run out the clock on contracts they have been unable to move.  We have folks that defend DD or Buck and even Brady.  I have defended all three at times.  We hear of dysfunction and we see zero accountability.  Zip.  Nada.  None.

1 - GM - Not fired, not absolved, not promoted.  His contract ends when the season ends.  At the deadline it looked as if he may be returning to run the rebuild. But if he were, announcing that already would make sense and his first move could have been either firing Buck or extending him.  I have said I would be ok with DD returning as I do think he has been very much obstructed.  But, increasingly, I think he is gone.

2 -  Manager - Buck has been a tremendous asset to the Orioles.  But clearly for whatever reason, his message no longer resonates.  This team has lost 120 games or so since last Sept.  Buck's record as an Oriole manager is now a losing record.  In spite of his vast knowledge and experience, his time here has to be over.  If it was to be otherwise, like above, working that out before this season would have made a lot more sense.  Instead, we have a manager whose contract ends with the season and he remains unfired, not absolved, not promoted.  In fact, he seems completely unaccountable.  Even for those who continue to want him to continue, at his salary, he no longer makes sense.  

3 - Best Player - Well, that used to be Manny Machado but he is gone.  The Orioles managed to make a pretty good deal in moving him, but this was a break up that could have gone oh so differently.  There was a time, it is now known that the Orioles could have extended him.  A risky move but one that comes with the territory.  It didn't happen.  Instead like Mussina, Cruz, Markakis he is gone and wont return.  But it's not because the Orioles will not commit money.  (See Davis, Chris and Trumbo, Mark)

4 - Team Capitan - Adam Jones has been the front line guy and has been a pretty stand up guy too.  He entered the season in the final year of his contract as well.  The Orioles, eliminated in May listless by the all star break, couldn't get Jones to agree to be moved.  Entirely within his right and as I have stated before, if I were his agent, I would have done the same thing.  But this season plays out in a way that likely leaves Adam Jones and the Orioles no longer in a happy marriage and likely with hurt feelings we haven't seen since Murray and Mussina.

5 - SP - At the end of last season, the Orioles had expiring contracts on three of their starting pitchers including the workhorse of the Era, Chris Tillman.  Faced with all of the above, the Orioles could have begun a rebuild last offseason or they could have gone all in.  They chose neither.  Waiting until spring training to nab Cobb and Cashner and of course Tillman.  The opening day roster included not one, not two, but 3 Rule V players.  The result, only the worst season in franchise history.  Now, Bundy is questionable and Gausman is gone.  Bad luck?  Sure.  But this looks poorly designed and horrendously executed.

6 - Closer - Zach Britton was the lights out reliever who will forever be remembered like Mussina...for not coming in to pitch.  The Orioles could have extended him, or traded him, but like all of the above, they chose to do nothing in the offseason and go for it.  Of course, Britton was injured in the offseason and shelved till May.  He still managed to bring a pretty good return but many continue to wonder if his situation could not have been handled differently.  Again was it just bad luck?  Indecision?  Someone once said:  Be decisive, Right or wrong, make a decision.  The road of life is paved with flat squirrels who couldn't make a decision.  

7 - International Market - One of the lone bright spots of this year is the announcement that the Orioles will be players in the international market going forward.  Well, that remains to be seen and for many the only saving grace of the Gausman deal will be if the international pool money obtained nets Victor Victor Mesa and perhaps his brother.  If the organization seemed like it had a plan, this would be tremendous news.  But until we see results....

8 -  Legal issue with MASN.  Who knows how this ends, but almost no-one thinks the Orioles are the winner.

9 - Brady Anderson could be the last man standing.  Of course that means he could also be the GM, Manager opening day lead off hitter playing CF.  But I don't think that is going to happen. 

 

I can wear whatever number this seasons stamps on Oriole history.  I'll get up and dust off like most everyone else here will.  They Orioles don't truly owe us anything really.  The Orioles are a massive investment and we don't own them.  Even though our investment is also large in terms of emotion and money.  But I do think as owners of a business, a declaration of accountability and a statement of forward looking projections and the methods that will be taken to achieve those goals are in order.  

Maintaining the status quo going forward is certainly possible.  The Orioles collapsed to finish last in '17, chose not to rebuild or go all in and now have 2018 to carry as a painful scar, with perhaps several more seasons before recovery.  We have seen hints that changes will come, but yet we still limp forward with a GM, Manager and Captain who increasingly look like they are trapped in a room and can't wait to escape.  We have traded the best player to come up through our system since Cal Ripken Jr and the best reliever we have ever had.   If the Angelos sons are taking over for their father, the time has come to address the failings of the organization.  Failing to do so beginning Oct 1, 2018 would continue the mindset that has carried the Orioles since the aftermath of 2017.  "We are going for it!"  

We know now we are not.  It's time for accountability.

And to ownership, honestly, I appreciate going for it.  And I loved that 5 years where the Orioles had the best record in the American League.  I loved being back in the playoffs and when I close my eyes, I can still hear the sound of the crowd when Delmon Young doubled to score Hardy.  And if we went too long to keep it going for an owner who wanted a ring, well I can live with that and everything that it means.  But when the season ends, an accounting is due and that accountability will demand change not words about change.  And it will demand action, not words about action.

The window is now closed.

Fantastic post and recap. Well done.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I just don't see how you (successfully) walk him back down from what we suspect is complete autonomy. You can clarify his role, but the fox will still be in the hen house. 

Also you’re not going to get a quality GM if Brady is continued to be allowed  to do whatever he pleases.  He needs a defined role and to stay his lane.

[Tony-OH]

Step one in any rebuild, establish who is charge of the rebuild! 

That's seems simple, but with the Orioles, nothing is simple. 

We honestly don't even know who the buck stops with within ownership? 

We believe Peter Angelos is out of the picture and no one has ever heard of his wife being involved, so even if she inherited the team, she would need some to be President of the Orioles. The assumption is it will be either John Angelos or Lou Angelos, but they have been very quiet publicly which means either they have this plan that they are waiting until seasons' end to inform the public on, or even they are unsure of the arrangement going forward.

Bring in the stories of MLB being confused over who is running things with the Orioles and we have a very serious situation that needs to be rectified and publicly announced before anyone can be sure of anything with the Orioles.

 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

7 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Step one in any rebuild, establish who is charge of the rebuild! 

That's seems simple, but with the Orioles, nothing is simple. 

We honestly don't even know who the buck stops with within ownership? 

We believe Peter Angelos is out of the picture and no one has ever heard of his wife being involved, so even if she inherited the team, she would need some to be President of the Orioles. The assumption is it will be either John Angelos or Lou Angelos, but they have been very quiet publicly which means either they have this plan that they are waiting until seasons' end to inform the public on, or even they are unsure of the arrangement going forward.

Bring in the stories of MLB being confused over who is running things with the Orioles and we have a very serious situation that needs to be rectified and publicly announced before anyone can be sure of anything with the Orioles.

 

What odds would you give that the Angelos brothers sort this out after the season concludes?  This is the most pressing issue that needs to be addressed first before anything else.